"Crossing the great water"

bruce_g · May 30, 2007

In my practice, this term has signified completing an undertaking or taking a leap forward. Yet, I'm curious what the original implications of this term were and how it is translated, and if there's something in it I may have missed.

Illumination requested.

Sparhawk · May 30, 2007

利涉大川 (li4 she4 da4 chuan1)

利 is an interesting character, it is translated as "worthwhile" by Brad. Legge translate it as "advantageous". I've seen is as "propitious" and some other suchlike. The dictionary has it as "profit / benefit / advantage / gain / sharp / to benefit / to serve" The etymology of the character shows a grain of rice (禾) and a knife (刂). I'm sure you can make the connection there.

涉 is another cool character. The dictionary calls for "involve; concern; wade; to experience" and the etymology says "ford stream, wade across". It is composed by water (水) and footprints, step, pace (步). Another straight forward connection there.

大 needs no introduction, I think...

Now, 川, is a tricky one. "Streams" and "waters" seem to be the default meanings, but some accepted meanings are "plain" and "an area of level country". A interesting old "seal character" for chuan1 is

That's a familiar "friend" in the character...

So much for the Chinese class I'm taking myself as I go along... As for the meaning in divination, I think you are pretty much on the mark.

L

bruce_g · May 30, 2007

Thanks a lot, Luis. Good stuff. 'Fraid I don't make the connection between rice grain and knife, though...

Sparhawk · May 30, 2007

bruce_g said:
Thanks a lot, Luis. Good stuff. 'Fraid I don't make the connection between rice grain and knife, though...

At the risk of being mistaken, I see it as "harvest time," the time when you cut the rice stalks. A propitious time for all in the community. See, I think this a great example of how the etymology of a character develops, from simple drawings to complex ideas. "Harvest time" and "advantageous" can be, sometimes, seen as synonyms.

L

bruce_g · May 30, 2007

Ah, harvest, of course!

getojack · May 31, 2007

I've actually been thinking about this for quite a while... the symbolism behind river imagery in different cultures and religions. I think a book could be written on all the real and archetypal great waters that exist. Just off the top of my head, we've got...

* "Crossing the great water" in the Yijing,
* The five rivers that separate this world from the underworld in Greek mythology, including the River Styx and the River Lethe (river of forgetting),
* The Ganges River in India, considered by Hindus to be a holy river,
* Numerous river baptisms in the Bible,
* "Paramita" or "arriving at the other shore" in Buddhism,
* Mesopotamia, the cradle of civilization, nestled between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers,
* The great Nile River, simultaneously revered and feared by its inhabitants on the flood plains,

and then there's this from "The Yellow River Travel Guide":

"The central Chinese provinces of Shanxi , Shaanxi , Henan and Shandong are linked and dominated by the Yellow River (Huang He), which has played a vital role in their history, geography and fortunes. The river is often likened to a dragon, a reference not just to its sinuous course, but also to its uncontrollable nature, and its behaviour, by turns benign and malevolent."

dobro · May 31, 2007

I translate it 'wading', not 'crossing', cuz I think the whole point is in getting started, not in accomplishing the crossing. It's like when you roll your sleeves up and get started on a major project. I don't think the river or the water is particularly symbolic here; I think it's just a handy image for something that has to be done if you want to get to where you're going. You're faced by a river; there's no boat or bridge; you have to get to the other side; you have to wade in and get wet if you want to get to where you're going. We say: "He got his feet wet," meaning "he got involved in an undertaking" - I think it's the same thing.

bradford · May 31, 2007

This is a note on the subject in my introduction. I think if you look carefully at
the contexts in which the sentence appears you'll see the meaning change:

There are also cases where the translation should remain the
same but new aspects should unfold or be seen in different circumstances. The
phrase Li She Da Chuan, "(it is) worthwhile to cross the great stream" seems to
mean something a little different in each place it is used. At Gua 05, Waiting or
Anticipation, it is rather subtly suggesting that this crossing is best done before
the rains come and so sets a good example of this chapter's subject of optimizing
the meantime. At Gua 13, Fellowship With Others, it speaks to broadening our
horizons and our exposure to humanity beyond our familiar spheres. At Gua 26,
Raising Great Beasts, the act is more akin to making a survey of one's domain or
an intelligence gathering activity.

bruce_g · May 31, 2007

Interesting subtleties, Brad.

Thanks, y'all.

bradford · May 31, 2007

sparhawk said:
At the risk of being mistaken, I see it as "harvest time," the time when you cut the rice stalks. L

Hi Luis -
The character itself is a harvest image, the knife cutting grain. What makes this word different from Ji, promise or good fortune, is all of the work that led up to the harvest.
Ji can come to us unearned, Li does not. With Li we are reaping the benefits of the time and energy that we have invested in this crop we are now harvesting. That's why I translate it worthwhile or rewarding - it is worth our time, it rewards our efforts.
B

bruce_g · May 31, 2007

bradford said:
That's why I translate it worthwhile or rewarding - it is worth our time, it rewards our efforts.
B

This is really what I was searching for. "It furthers one to.." also works, but how and why to further through crossing/wading seemed still nebulous to me. To say "it is worth while to.." seems more common sense to me. For example, I may not necessarily be trying to further anything, but doing something worth my time could be both more casual and more far reaching in meaning, even without having a goal to further something, or with an eye purely on the result rather than on the actual doing. Not every action has an intention, but a reward or satisfaction which comes from the action rather than an intention is worthwhile. Helpful in, say, Zen practice.

Sparhawk · May 31, 2007

bradford said:
Ji can come to us unearned, Li does not. With Li we are reaping the benefits of the time and energy that we have invested in this crop we are now harvesting. That's why I translate it worthwhile or rewarding - it is worth our time, it rewards our efforts.
B

Aha! Thanks, Brad. That was illuminating and a confirmation of what I suspected.

L

bradford · May 31, 2007

While we're on the subject, let's get rid of "wading" right now.
Really - how great a stream can it be if we can wade across it?
This is the kiddie end of the gene pool. Is it a consequence of
our democracy and egalitarianism that we set our standards
for greatness so low?

bruce_g · May 31, 2007

I could easily agree to that, which is why we have differed on hex. 5. You say "At Gua 05, Waiting or Anticipation, it is rather subtly suggesting that this crossing is best done before the rains come and so sets a good example of this chapter's subject of optimizing the meantime." I've always seen 5 as crossing after the rain stops, hence the waiting, and not the wading.

Sparhawk · May 31, 2007

bradford said:
While we're on the subject, let's get rid of "wading" right now.
Really - how great a stream can it be if we can wade across it?

Maybe it is a very wide but shallow "great water"... :rolling:

Watch the wake you make with yours steps, please...

L

bradford · May 31, 2007

sparhawk said:
Maybe it is a very wide but shallow "great water"... Watch the wake you make with yours steps, please...
L

Like American curiosity - a mile wide and an inch deep.

There are a few places where one actually does wade in over one's head. Notably 26.6.
And one swims across at 11.2, possibly using an empty pack as a float.

Anyway, a final note - on Chuan. Some like to see this as a sea, great lake or an ocean instead of a stream, a logical reading of great water. But this falls apart when you look at a map of the Early Zhou Dynasty. Rivers played a big part in their lives, the ocean did not.

bruce_g · Jun 1, 2007

I was reading, pondering all this, and had to ask myself, why? What is over there that isn’t over here, on this side of the river? If someone enjoys swimming, wading, boating, whatever their way across streams, great! But what of ambition? No doubt it drives this thing we call progress, but I’m not so sure we’ve progressed much as a species, really. Ambition and Li She Da Chuan, hmm…

So I put it to the Yi: What is Ambition? 44

Makes sense on at least two levels. We cross to grasp the woman, or, the woman crosses to bear an heir.

Sparhawk · Jun 1, 2007

bradford said:
Like American curiosity - a mile wide and an inch deep.

LOL!

bruce_g · Jun 1, 2007

...which equals survival

rosada · Jun 1, 2007

playing around with this...Seeing 44 as representing the siren calls. Ambition can be the ultimate call that leads man to his doom, or the inner guide that steers one past all the worldly temptations.

bruce_g · Jun 1, 2007

rosada said:
playing around with this...Seeing 44 as representing the siren calls. Ambition can be the ultimate call that leads man to his doom, or the inner guide that steers one past all the worldly temptations.

Ok, me bite. How can ambition be the inner guide that steers one past all the worldly temptations? And, is this ambitious guide trustworthy?

getojack · Jun 1, 2007

bruce_g said:
Ok, me bite. How can ambition be the inner guide that steers one past all the worldly temptations? And, is this ambitious guide trustworthy?

I think what Rosada was getting at is that it depends on where you are at the moment. For example, if you're stuck in a self-destructive cycle, then ambition to get out of that situation could lead you past worldly temptations, right?

rosada · Jun 1, 2007

Yeah, or if you want to win the spelling bee you go streight to your studies and aren't tempted to watch t.v.

bruce_g · Jun 1, 2007

Ok, I was reading "ambition.. the inner guide that steers one past all the worldly temptations" as something more than discrimination or deferred gratification. Winning a spelling B is another ambition, grasping another woman, bearing another child. To my thinking, that is not being steered past all worldly temptations, it is just replacing one with another, a more desirable (44) one.

getojack · Jun 1, 2007

Seems to me you have a negative view of ambition. Is ending self-destructive behavior not a worthy ambition? Speaking of rivers reminds me of River Phoenix. By all accounts, he was a good kid who fell into a self-destructive cycle. Then one night he takes a speedball at a club and it kills him. You might say it was his ambition for worldly temptation that killed him.

Now think of your friend who had the ambition to kick heroin. It was his ambition that gave him a life. Ambition can be positive or negative. That's how I read "Ambition can be the ultimate call that leads man to his doom, or the inner guide that steers one past all the worldly temptations."

bruce_g · Jun 1, 2007

I haven't attached a positive or negative connotation to ambition, nor to discrimination. What I am doing is studying the nature of ambition; that which is the impetus for crossing the great water.

Striving for enlightenment is striving nonetheless, for example. It is the nature of this striving which interests me. What I've concluded is that, it is within the nature of every cell of living matter to cross the great water. It is hardwired survival which is at the core. It is fire leaping to something dry, or water attracting to what is wet. It is the nature of things to strive, to grow and unite.

But do I trust this as my guide? Do I strive to overcome temptation? No. I strive to understand it, which is striving nonetheless.

Sparhawk · Jun 1, 2007

bruce_g said:
grasping another woman

I tried that... I usually get smacked, from both sides... :rolling:

L

bruce_g · Jun 1, 2007

Jack, do you see the connection to 44 in my last statement? 44 gets a bad rap, but it is survival instinct at its core. One shouldn't marry such a maiden, trusting instincts of this nature to guide, even though 44 is the impetus to cross great waters.

bruce_g · Jun 1, 2007

sparhawk said:
I tried that... I usually get smacked, from both sides...

L

Yeah, but you like it. :mischief:

_notan_ · Jun 1, 2007

Wilhelm-Baynes

I can't find it now, but I know that I read somewhere in the Wilhelm Baynes translation (or commentaries) that the crossing of the great waters refered to going into a temple for spiritual worship. It said that back in the day, temples were usually built with their entrance facing water, so that one would have to cross that water to enter. I know that this doesn't completely make sense (this is partially why I remember it- I mean just because a door is facing water doesn't mean one has to cross the water to enter the door...... unless the door is right on the water......)

This may all be based on outdated archeology, but I read it in a book, so it must be true.

:bows:

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