Can the Yijing cause you to lose your personal power?

bruce_g · Sep 28, 2006

If you are easily offended, please do not read this.

Can the Yijing cause you to lose your personal power? Can the Yi cause more harm than good, specifically to those who seek to serve it, obey it or conform to it?

Using the microcosm of this very forum by way of example, I have witnessed the colors, flare and vibrancy go out of some here. I have also seen those who appear to lack personal power and dynamics, who remain in a pale state of neutrality. Only my subjective opinion or personal projection? Maybe. I’ll let you decide that.

I believe that we can so yield to the authority from which the Yi speaks, trusting implicitly in everything we interpret it as saying, that we stand to lose the best of what we are made of in the process.

This can also been seen in some who have gone through extensive therapy, seeking to “clean up their act”, and exorcise all of their demons.

The same is true, in general, for the Christian religion. All demons are to be cast out, no “bad” habits are to remain. This is a travesty of the teaching of the one they claim to follow. Jesus spoke a parable in Mathew 12:43-45, which says:

“When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth [it] empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.”

Christians reconcile the meaning of this parable as saying, no one is capable of casting out their own demons; only Jesus can do that. I do not believe that is at all what Jesus was saying. I believe that Jesus was saying what was later said by Nietzsche:

“Be careful about casting out your demon, you might be casting out the best part.”

So, call me the devil, because I admonish you: do not become anemic in your effort to become “The Superior Man”. Screw the Superior Man, screw the I-Ching, screw Lao Tzu and Jesus too, if to follow them means losing who you really are, and all those beautiful colors of life.

martin · Sep 28, 2006

Screw me?

Hey, I'm already nailed! F*ck off man, screw yourself!!

Jesus :rant:

stevev · Sep 28, 2006

Now we're talking

bruce_g said:
I believe that we can so yield to the authority from which the Yi speaks, trusting implicitly in everything we interpret it as saying, that we stand to lose the best of what we are made of in the process.

I can’t stand the idea that the IChing is revealed truth recorded by pristine souls from an unsullied age, some sort of Chinese Holy Book.

I think the IChing’s only authority is the authority of intelligent thought, the same we are all capable of, to some degree, and the IChing’s message is to persevere in critical thought for personal improvement.

A beautiful if deficient system that looks to the nature of the earth and ourselves for inspiration.

bruce_g · Sep 28, 2006

Martin, LOL! That's the spirit!

Wondering if I'm giving Hilary gray hairs?

It was tempting to soften this up, make it gentler, but I'm being straight up here. It not only concerns me, it disturbs me when people lose their color. Naturally, refinement of our nature is part of the benefit of what Yi teaches us, but refinement doesn't mean diluting our personal power or causing our colors to fade.

autumn · Sep 28, 2006

This reminds me of a question I've never been completely satisfied that I know the answer to- why religious (Judeo-Christian, Muslim) prohibition on divination? What is the basis? The assumption is that a relgion seeks principles that nourish the soul. So why that principle? I have always assumed that it revolves around two ideas- first, that if you divine, you aren't forming a relationship with God, (Bruce's idea, really, that you aren't trusting God within yourself to speak), and two, that by divining you don't have control over the spirits that you communicate with.

I have known a few very good clairvoyants, and the very good ones "see" spirits. Even they will tell you there are negative spirits. So, the idea is that the divination tool is a medium that you can't always control if you aren't paying attention. I guess for myself, I just assumed that because my intention is to align with my highest good, that I am speaking with something "good".

Anyone else who can answer the question in a better way, I would love to hear your comments.

bruce_g · Sep 28, 2006

stevev said:
I can’t stand the idea that the IChing is revealed truth recorded by pristine souls from an unsullied age, some sort of Chinese Holy Book.

I think the IChing’s only authority is the authority of intelligent thought, the same we are all capable of, to some degree, and the IChing’s message is to persevere in critical thought for personal improvement.

A beautiful if deficient system that looks to the nature of the earth and ourselves for inspiration.

Amen.

martin · Sep 28, 2006

Google is great

, found a few nice quotes:

Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without.
(Confucius, Analects)

I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center.
(Kurt Vonnegut Jr)

Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it.
(Salvador Dali)

You see, when weaving a blanket, an Indian woman leaves a flaw in the weaving of that blanket to let the soul out (Martha Graham)

bruce_g · Sep 28, 2006

Autumn,

The Bible is funny about divination. On one hand it condemns the practice, but yet they “cast lots” to make important decisions, such as when the apostles had to choose someone to replace Judas. To say nothing of the later practice of using divination to determine who was or wasn’t a witch. It’s very hypocritical. However, the main reason divination was said to be sinful was that, someone who uses divination is not trusting God (enough). The other reason is as you’ve stated, that of entertaining spirits, ghosts, demons or what have you. Yet, Hebrews 13:2 says, “Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.” Go figure.

bruce_g · Sep 28, 2006

martin said:
You see, when weaving a blanket, an Indian woman leaves a flaw in the weaving of that blanket to let the soul out (Martha Graham)

:bows:

rosada · Sep 28, 2006

When someone is ill, a doctor may take a little sample of their blood to see what the problem is. Losing a teaspoon of blood is not going to do anyone much harm. But if the patient keeps analyzing their blood over and over, night and day, well, pretty soon they bleed to death. Likewise, turning away from one's own inner feeling to consult an outside authority now and then wont cause much confusion, but too much thinking and not enough feeling can eventually cause a person to lose track of their soul.

stevev · Sep 29, 2006

Well there’s ‘feeling’ good and ‘feeling’ empathy. Don’t get me wrong I’ve got nothing against feelings, I’m a hedonist, but ‘feeling’ empathy is thought inspired.

nicky_p · Sep 29, 2006

Oh, there is sooo much I want to write.

Martin - I used to wear a 'no fear' t-shirt when I was younger that said: if you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much room!

Autumn - Have you seen a film called white noise with Micheal Keating in it? A bit scary but very good.

Bruce - I've gotten into trouble so many times with religion. I don't even think I should start because I won't shut up! BUT I will let 1 little argument I have with Christianity and divination - what about Joseph??!! He interpreted dreams for the pharaoh of Egypt. More in the Judaism section I know (OT) but still the bible. Oh, and Nostradamus was Christian.

I like your personal subjective opinion and feel I must concur!

The rules are sometimes made to be broken! (sorry, shades of 6 coming back :blush:

)

hilary · Sep 29, 2006

martin said:
Google is great

Well, at least we have an alternative if divination goes out of fashion round here.

Divination isn't meant to be about an outside authority, I don't think. More to do with making inner knowledge much harder to ignore.

And that, of course, doesn't mean it can't have exactly the results Bruce says. I'm less and less fond of readings that ask (explicitly or implicitly) 'What should I do?' (A very different question from 'what should I do to achieve this result?') And when someone says they wanted to do something, but Yi said not to, so they won't...

OTOH I had a whole bunch of plans rewritten for me today, and I can see exactly why they needed the rewriting - they were wishy-washy and non-committal, and now they're not.

I already had grey hairs.

stevev · Sep 29, 2006

PS

‘Feeling’ good is the reward of nature’s carrot, ‘feeling’ empathy often incurs the penalty of nature’s stick.

bruce_g · Sep 29, 2006

nicky_p said:
Bruce - I've gotten into trouble so many times with religion. I don't even think I should start because I won't shut up! BUT I will let 1 little argument I have with Christianity and divination - what about Joseph??!! He interpreted dreams for the pharaoh of Egypt. More in the Judaism section I know (OT) but still the bible. Oh, and Nostradamus was Christian.

It's a big and controversial subject, religion and divination.

Yes, Joseph came to my mind earlier today, in regards to this topic. Specifically, Joseph and his coat of many colors. Interesting story. And yes, he did become powerful and famous for his gift of prophetic dreams and dream interpretations. The story of Daniel is quite similar. It seems these sorts of hero figures were always getting into a heap of trouble with their authorities. But at least they were true to themselves, never losing their colors.

mudpie · Sep 29, 2006

Bruce,
I dont know how you make that statement about some losing their flare, color and vibrancy to become pale and neutral on this board. Someone who ceases to talk here may be doing so because an internet forum is sometimes not the safest nor most pleasant place to choose to be one's most vibrant self. OTOH, there were some- quite a few- who posted here with furious vibrancy and color and who ended up leaving in a great flash of heated color because their ideas were disputed by others, OR, more often, had a wet blanket thrown on them....but by individuals, not by the Yi. IMO, sometimes those colorful ideas were worthy and sometimes they were arrogant and egotistical, but either way, it was fun to have very colorful discussions.

If a discussion board seems colorless and neutral , I think it has more to do with the way people allow for generous sharing of ideas - or don't -

I think it is cautioned here repeatedly by many wise people that one is NOT to use the Yi as a fortune teller or an oracle that takes away your personal power. The wisdom of the Yi is, must be, seamlessly connected to the heart, soul and psyche of the person who is asking the question. If you try to subtract your heart, soul, mind and personal intuition from the Yi response you get ---if it is even possible --your responses will seem flat and nonsensical. People who try to use the Yi this way become disinterested and disillusioned pretty quickly. It is only the resonance with the soul which produces the wisdom.

In the account of Nigel Richmond on biroco's site, it said that Nigel would converse with the Yi every morning, like an old friend, and if the Yi said something was not a good idea, he listened. I admit that I DO use the yi that very way. It is not because "AH BELIEVE in the Yi", it is because I trust the guidance I have received over the years, guidance which has almost unfailingly proven to have merit. I also pay close attention to my dreams. BUt most importantly, I trust the Yi guidance because I trust my soul, I trust my own intuition implicitly, and I trust that I am part of a whole picture. The Yi is only a way to connect with the larger picture and to illuminate things which may yet be in the shadows of my conscious mind.

BTw, Bruce, that quote about the demons returning to the "home" with greater force, mulitplied, is not saying to reclaim your demons as the best part of you....it is saying that the price of liberty is eternal vigilance. Without vigilance, you don't just get the same demon back, you get him and all his cousins.

And FWIW, I think most religions denounce divination BECAUSE they have not wanted individuals to know or acknowledge personal power or ability to connect personally with the "diety". Catholicism in particular has a large investment in patriarchal authority with corresponding individual neediness and "sinfulness". If people were to discover a personal hotline to divine guidance from within, religions would be outta business. psssstt: TOO LATE! The door is already open.

stevev · Sep 29, 2006

PS v2.0

As for the soul, if soul equals mind then just call it mind, if soul is an ethereal cosmic essence transported by our substantial terrestrial bodies to Nirvana or Heaven all I can say is:

“If you look for things you can't see, and listen for things you can‘t hear, you end up with nothing.”

Oh, that's right I didn't say that, somebody else did.

And god, I wouldn't even waste my time.

bruce_g · Sep 29, 2006

stevev said:
‘Feeling’ good is the reward of nature’s carrot, ‘feeling’ empathy often incurs the penalty of nature’s stick.

The paradox of Avalokitesvara, who, out of his compassion, refused Nirvana until all sentient beings were delivered from their suffering. The curse of empathy is also the greatest gift.

bruce_g · Sep 29, 2006

Listener,

It doesn’t matter who specifically I was talking about. Those to whom it applies can apply it. The others need not concern themselves with it. I could as well have been talking about myself. Let me assure you that I was not excluded.

We disagree on the demons story, but that’s cool. I’ve listened for 20 years to your interpretation, given from the pulpit of righteousness.

There’s more than one reason (given and underlying) why some religions renounce divination. I agree, that keeping their followers ignorant was a big one. There was also debilitating superstitions and fears, fostered by religious leaders. God forbid they should have a mind of their own.

bruce_g · Sep 29, 2006

Listener,

The original daemon was already in the man’s house, meaning: it was his own daemon. The man, rather than work with, tame and utilize his daemon, chose to cast him out. The man was cleansed, but now without a soul. His old daemon became thirsty and lonely, and so he took up with a klatch of other daemons, far less clean than himself. Then he said, hey, I know a great place we can go; it’s clean and comfortable. With no soul, the man lost his authority, and was unable to fend off the foreign daemons. And so the man’s condition was far worse than if he had kept and tamed his own daemon.

jesed · Sep 29, 2006

Let me say:

1.- You are discussing about religions, most expecifically Catholism, as if there was a solid block of thougt. But they aren't.

Example: Both Thomas Merton and Escriva de Balaguer was Catholic, but what they do, and what they teach was very diferent.

Even in the "official teaching" of the Church we can see diferences and changes (see the theological valoration about Thomas of Aquino's ideas..first rejected, then aproved; or even more, contrast the theology of Council Vatican I against the theology of Council Vatican II).

2.- About Bible and divination, is necesary to clarify some things:
a) In the early part of the Bible, divination (to consult God with some tools) is not only NOT-FORBIDDEN, but ORDERED. The divination (specially about to go or not in war) should be made by the High Priest using some tables that was covered inside the Arch of the Aliance. If the People went to war without the aproval of the divination, the outcome would be defeat.
b) When the Arch was lost, the divination was made by profesional prophets in the Cout of King David (it is not said in the bible the tools for divination)... even in the earliest age of the 2 Kingdoms, there was professional prophets at the courts
c) This organized prophets fall in disgrace because they corrupted themselves (say what the King wanted to hear). Then, charismatic non-profesional prophets arise. This charismatic prophets didn't use tools or special prayers to made a divination. They just "hear" the voice of God, and some times they "see" him. Those are the prophets of the mainly Old Aliance (Mayors and Minors)
d) By the time of the macedonian invasion, there was no prophets anymore. In the Book of Machabeus, it is said that some decisions couldn't be made until a new prophet arise.
e) John the Baptiste and Jesus was considered prophets; and one the ministeries of the first christian comunities was the Prophecy. The election of the one who should ocupy the place of Judas the traitor was decided by a divination to God (they called there the Spirit) tossing some coins.

Now, what is forbidden in the Bible is the spiritism (to consult the death human spirits to forsee the future). But even so, there is one case of a King consulting a spirit in the Old testament.

3.- About the causes to forbid the spiritism in the Bible, there are 2: a) to not disturb the death people; and b) to remain diferent from their enemies around. It was part o the construction of the identity. Another cause (not explicit in the Bible, but derivated from the comparison studies) is that Judaism, and later Cristianism and Muslism, are religion based on the action of God in the History; diferent form the "angelical" spiritualities around.

Now, this is about the Bible; I'm nort talking here about later Churches decisions and justifications.

Best wishes

jesed · Sep 29, 2006

bruce_g said:
The original daemon was already in the man’s house, meaning: it was his own daemon. .

That is an interesting thought, respetable as subjective choice. But has nothing to do with the sense in the culture when the quote had been said.

In semitical cultures, in the time of Jesus, the people have his/her own spirit. But sometimes, others spirit came into him/her. That means: this entities doesn't belong to the person, but are external influences coming in. That's why, this situations are described as a possession, an invasion. Not only deamons can possess a person. God can do it.

Therefore, any time a person acted like "other" than him/her self, (for bad, but also for good), the explanation was: a possession. He/She wasn't acting really, but something else.

Of course, the way you understand this NOW is worthly. I'm just pointing that it was not the sense in the time when it was said.

Best wishes

bruce_g · Sep 29, 2006

Jesed,

That’s really cool, and I agree with most of what you said in your first post. I don’t recall me or anyone else mentioning Catholicism specially, however.

Regarding the demon story, thanks for complimenting on my rendition as being worthy. I read it that way. I understand what you’re saying also, in terms of the unclean spirit meaning a foreign invasion, but that isn’t how I read: “When THE unclean spirit is gone out from a man”. Maybe Jesus hadn’t yet read Jung, but he sure knew what the word “Shadow” meant.

It is true that Jesus followed the law of Moses and many Semitic traditions, but he was anything but a traditionalist. His metaphors frustrated even his apostles, who asked: “Why do you speak to us in parables?” He called the Temple leaders “a brood of vipers!” and “white washed tombs!” I don’t think he was too concerned with traditional thought, and I see the demon story as an illustration of that.

The foreign demons which came into the man’s house is an example of “others” who “possess” him. Isn’t this what someone does when they slavishly imitate a foreign god or religion? And perhaps then a man does require the intervention of a savior or shaman to cast them out, since the man has lost authority of his own “unclean spirit”.

lightofreason · Sep 29, 2006

stevev said:
Well there’s ‘feeling’ good and ‘feeling’ empathy. Don’t get me wrong I’ve got nothing against feelings, I’m a hedonist, but ‘feeling’ empathy is thought inspired.

? Empathy comes out of resonace. Sympathy is more thought-inspired in that it does not 'share space' as empathy can do.

Empathy moves us into the dynamics of projection and transference - especially the passive form where exposure to 'snippets' of an emotion over time and so the resonance is not immediate but sneaks up on you. The problem here is that the resonace can be to an emotion that comes without history - this will lead to the emotion 'suddenly' taking over 'in here' in that it needs to be 'discharged' through association with some history - otherwise it develops into traits like that of blind panic - consciousness has no control or finds it extremely diffcult to stabilise 'in here' without access to a history, a 'reason why'.

From the IC perspective, it is possible to have a relationship that gets ever closer to the "IC" and as such leaves one open to 'becoming' - where identity can be lost or replaces with something considered 'better'. This prospect is reduced when one recognises the IC for what it is - a metaphor for our species-nature to communicate. From THAT perspective comes the realisation that getting 'closer' to the IC, as a metaphor, serves to aid one in getting closer to what links us all - our species nature, our social nature - what is metaphorised.

Once there, and so once in touch with our species-nature and our particularness as a species-member, so we establish stability in our unconscious and so set down foundations for the further development of our singular, and so unique, nature.

Chris.

heylise · Sep 29, 2006

I guess if you listen to Yi like an authority who tells you what to do, or how your future will turn out, you lose your own color.

My own experience with Yi was rather the opposite. I had little faith in my own inner voice for the simple reason that it was too soft to really hear what it was telling me. So outside voices had big impact, and yet I knew, that it was not right this way. But finding the inner assurance to go your own way is hard, when you cannot even discern what your own way is.

I felt from the start of using the Yi, that it aligned with that inner voice. When that one was too faint, Yi made me recognize what it said. Not by 'telling' it to me, but by opening up something. Like removing earplugs. Very similar to telling someone a very serious story, taking approval for granted, and the other reacts with "oh, is it?" Or makes fun of it, or makes a small remarks which puts your entire story into disorder.

Makes you say "Oh.." and then silence. A very valuable silence, tearing down yet another wall of assumptions. Lost for words because you are finding your real words back.

This is very much what Yi does for me, tearing down walls. Most walls are made by the world around you, from what they expect, from what you yourself expect from them, and from what you expect of yourself towards them. Time and again Yi questioned those assumptions. Very often making me laugh out loud. So Yi loosened me up rather than made me 'correct'. My inner voice is not soft anymore, I can recognize it easily and follow it, so I don't need Yi anymore as much as I did back then.

LiSe

stevev · Sep 29, 2006

Not much difference

lightofreason said:
Empathy comes out of resonace. Sympathy is more thought-inspired in that it does not 'share space' as empathy can do.

Some of the definitions I’ve found.

Empathy:

“the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another”

Sympathy:

“inclination to think or feel alike”

And I think I’ll go further than “is thought inspired” and just say it is thought, although that usually does evoke feelings, often not pleasant, which in turn prompts action.

frank_r · Sep 29, 2006

bruce_g said:
“Be careful about casting out your demon, you might be casting out the best part.”

Hello Bruce,

Yes when you let your own demons loose, you will meet some other demons. But in the the end the only thing what is important that you can live with yourself with your own demons, fears and hopes.
After realeasing some "devils" I can live life easier, but I'm als the one who has to live with the consequences.

Long live the colourfull people!

lightofreason · Sep 29, 2006

stevev said:
...And I think I’ll go further than “is thought inspired” and just say it is thought, although that usually does evoke feelings, often not pleasant, which in turn prompts action.

I think you may be a touch out of your depth here. Context will push instincts that set off feelings and action. Thinking will then try to regulate such but often is overwhelmed.

Syntax is a feeling - located in the left hemisphere of your brain - there is NO thought withoiut feeling but there is feeling without thought.

An empath 'resonates' with the emotions of another - there is no such entitity as a sympath - one can be sympathetic 'towards' or 'of' another but it is empathy that elicits the sharing of the same space through emotional resonance.

mirror neurons etc all for empathy etc. BONDING is more empathic than sympathetic - mountain/lake focus on resonance, passion, suffering, joy etc and a focus on sharing of space overall without any 'border' to strongly differentiate as we have in sympathy.

Empathic focuses on good and bad, sympathetic is more focused on bad. I dont express my sympathy for ones joy, I do for one's sadness. OTOH I can share empathically both joy and sadness...

Empathy gets into issues of Projection and Transference and it CAN be 'uncomfortable', even dangerous to one's psyche - somthing sympathy avoids. I will post an email of mine covering projection/transference and its lead into the EmotionalIC material.

Chris.

Sparhawk · Sep 29, 2006

I would say there is a distinct difference between those whom dedicate a lifetime to study a system such as the Yi and those whom just have a "need" to "consult" the system due to their own life circumstances.

There is a lot of wisdom in the words of the ancients when they said that one should study and consult the Yi after the age of 50. There's no better school of "perspective" than life itself and life is a cummulative experience, obviously. You do need that perspective to properly appreciate the fine nuances of the Yi.

Those who blindly relent their will to a third party entity are not "Superior"; those who study and question and form their own path in life using the tools available to them are closer the the "Superior" goal than the former.

As for losing "color", heck yeah!!, you should see my hair...

L

autumn · Sep 29, 2006

One point about the parable of the man who had an unclean spirit cast from him only to have seven more return later- the reason why that happened is in the Scripture. It was the state of hisspirit that *drew* the demons. After the demons were cast out, he did not change the state of his spirit, and the result was a 7-fold increase in his previous problem.

The point of the story is to cure the inner problem that draws external bondage. Demons reference any kind of external bondage in this story- addiction, emotional turmoil, oppresive external problems. If you don't cure the inner problem, and someone else takes responsibility for delivering you from your external problems- (bails you out of jail), then you will lose touch with your inner ability to take responsibility for keeping 'demons' out of your life.

I understand the meaning of the thread- but in this parable, I don't think demons were meant to represent passion. I think demons here represent the external crap you draw into your life by not having inner balance and not taking responsibility for yourself.

Can the Yijing cause you to lose your personal power?

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