Hallo Toganm,

Your question:
"Frank, could you please reference where you find that hex. 54 is kidneys according to the Chinese clock of acupuncture."


There are two cycles where you can put the chinese clock on . The first more fysical cycle of the moon. Hexagram 24- 14-19-11-34-43-1-44-33-12-20-23 and 2. There are some book where the have this connection like the I Ching of Hua Ching Ni. Starting with Gb- Liv- lu-Li- St- Sp-Ha-Si-Bl-Ki-Pe and 3W.

And the second one is the cycle of the nuclaer hexagrams. With starting Gb etc. 27-23-39-53-37-44-28-43-38-54-40-and 24.

I will try to get a picture in, hopefully i manage I'm not such a computer miracle.

Why trigram earth is kidney I tell you next time

Best Wishes Frank R

Hello Frank,

frank_r said:

There are two cycles where you can put the chinese clock on . The first more fysical cycle of the moon. Hexagram 24- 14-19-11-34-43-1-44-33-12-20-23 and 2. There are some book where the have this connection like the I Ching of Hua Ching Ni. Starting with Gb- Liv- lu-Li- St- Sp-Ha-Si-Bl-Ki-Pe and 3W.

Click to expand...

Interesting, though the chinese clock is based on watch times (watching the sun not the moon) and traditonally going back to Su Wen (Yellow Emperor's Internal Canon of Medicine: Simple Questions) the circle which is called the Wei (Defensive) Cycle starts with Lung. That is one of the reasons why Qigong Tai Chi Chuan and meditation is done somewhere between 3-5 am to get the Heavenly Qi (Da Qi) into the lungs and the body.

The order you have provided, as far as I know, is used for the Microcosmic orbit meditation which is unification of the Du and Ren meridians (Governing and Conception) in one direction and I have never seen that to be used for chinese clock.

I have not read or learned that the chinese clock is based on the moon. One of the Chinese calendar is based on the lunar cycle but not the clock. I wonder where Hua Ching Ni finds that.

frank_r said:

And the second one is the cycle of the nuclaer hexagrams. With starting Gb etc. 27-23-39-53-37-44-28-43-38-54-40-and 24.

Click to expand...

I will get back to this one next time. I want have a deeper look before I reply.

frank_r said:

Why trigram earth is kidney I tell you next time

Click to expand...

Please do as to my knowledge Heaven and Earth are not related to any of the organs or rather to say officials in Chinese medicine which is closely related to Yi Jing.

Best Wishes
Togan

toganm said:

Hello Frank,



Interesting, though the chinese clock is based on watch times (watching the sun not the moon) and traditonally going back to Su Wen (Yellow Emperor's Internal Canon of Medicine: Simple Questions) the circle which is called the Wei (Defensive) Cycle starts with Lung. That is one of the reasons why Qigong Tai Chi Chuan and meditation is done somewhere between 3-5 am to get the Heavenly Qi (Da Qi) into the lungs and the body.Togan

Click to expand...

This order we studied in school when we studied the basis of the stems and branches, Hua Ching Ni called it the lunar and solar energies in a yearly cycle. 24 is more like the first light, the first yang of the day. And 11 is more the first cry of the baby, starting of life where the energy of the father(Trigram heaven ) and the mother(earth) are in perfect contact.Maybe you know david twicken we wrote already some articles about this relation ship between this cycle and the clock.


your question: "The order you have provided, as far as I know, is used for the Microcosmic orbit meditation which is unification of the Du and Ren meridians (Governing and Conception) in one direction and I have never seen that to be used for chinese clock".

I know the 8 extra meridians only as trigrams, the classic ones given by Xu Feng in 1439.

Your question: "

Please do as to my knowledge Heaven and Earth are not related to any of the organs or rather to say officials in Chinese medicine which is closely related to Yi Jing.:

One of the cycles of the stems and branches are:You can put the meridians in two ways first in the Fu shi sequence, then they form the elements. The 2 diagrams of Fu Shi sequence where the trigrams are in order.

The king Wen sequence is the known one, where kidney belongs to water.(see the third diagram)

So the kidney belong in the fu shi sequence to earth(same as liver, who is starting the cycle. But at the same time kidney belongs to element of water which has it's expression in trigram water. (and where bladder also belongs).
yes it's really hollistic thinking from those chinese, kidney at the same time hexagram 20, 54, trigram earth and element water.
Give it go, you will come to new insight and different aspects of the meridians.


Best Wishes Frank R

Hi Frank,

Thanks for the update. I had read David Twicken's articles before, yet I will reread them along with my own notes. My understanding so far was the Pre heaven sequence can only be used for the 8 extra ordinary meridians as that the embryo has not turned into the fetus and once the fetus is there then the 12 meridians will be established linked with the officials that is when the post heaven sequence can be used.
In the pre heaven it is the chaos hence there is no five phases. In post heaven the chaos is over then the the phases are introduced hence one can use the trigrams in relationship to the officials and chinese medicine.

Having said that I will reread Twicken's articles along with my notes once again and post my understanding shortly.

Best wishes
Togan

frank_r said:

One of the cycles of the stems and branches are:You can put the meridians in two ways first in the Fu shi sequence, then they form the elements. The 2 diagrams of Fu Shi sequence where the trigrams are in order.

The king Wen sequence is the known one, where kidney belongs to water.(see the third diagram)

So the kidney belong in the fu shi sequence to earth(same as liver, who is starting the cycle. But at the same time kidney belongs to element of water which has it's expression in trigram water. (and where bladder also belongs).

Click to expand...

Sorry for the late reply, as I had other things to attend. Anyway here is what I came up with. I am using Fu Xi sequence in a different way to yours. The basis of my interpretation is Su Wen Chapter 68, 70 and 71 and Shang Han Lun. Since you said you studied (or studying) acupuncture you should be able to follow what I mean.

Fu Xi is pre heaven so it is in a way macrocosm. The major influence is the Heaven and Earth so it is the outside factors. They are the axis where everything is transformed. It is like a reference to Qi. Heaven is pure yang and Earth is pure Yin. Yet no organ is pure yin or pure yang so these two can not be related to any officials (organs). On the other hand there are two meridians which are not related to any officials, Du mai and Ren mai. So

Qian (Heaven)= Du mai
Kun (Earth) = Ren Mai

The other trigrams are as follows

Zhen (Thunder) = Shao Yang = Triple heater, Gall Bladder
Li (Fire) = Yang Ming = Large Intestine, Stomach
Dui (Lake) = Tai Yang =Small Intestine, Bladder

Gen (Mountain) =Tai Yin = Lung, Spleen
Kan (Water) = Shao Yin = Heart, Kidney
Xun (Wind) = Jue Yin= Pericardium, Liver

King Wen sequence on the other hand is the microsm where the man is the main factor. This is also where the five elements can be seen. The axis where everything is transformed in the King Wen Sequence is the Mountain and Earth as earth occupies the center. The other elements are pretty clear and follow the sheng cycle.

You can look to the Fu Xi Sequence as the stage of Qi and Shang Han Lun describes the stages of illness using the 6 divisions of Yin Yang. In other words if one follows the order from Yang to Yin the sequence is the same as the 6 stages of diseases from external influences.

Best Wishes

Togan

Hello Togan,

toganm said:

Fu Xi is pre heaven so it is in a way macrocosm. The major influence is the Heaven and Earth so it is the outside factors. They are the axis where everything is transformed. It is like a reference to Qi. Heaven is pure yang and Earth is pure Yin. Yet no organ is pure yin or pure yang so these two can not be related to any officials (organs). On the other hand there are two meridians which are not related to any officials, Du mai and Ren mai.

Click to expand...

Yes, I know this one to, I know it from an article written by Peter Eckman, but I don't use it in practicle sense. Do you? And if so how do you use the trigrams and the meridians?

For me Fu Shi is is pre heaven so everything is already there, but still in chaos and on the other hand in perfect order(the perfect paradox) The opposites express the perfect order. We people have 10 meridians already there in heaven. Only PE and 3W not they are the expression of time(PE) and space(3W). So when we are born there is coming time and space and then the King Wen sequence starts working but in the back the fu shi sequence is always working.

The 10 in heaven are the stems, and the 12 on earth are the branches and the divisions are the leaves.
So you can express each stage with a different trigram, I never did this with the leaves because I found it hard to place the trigrams and the divisions but maybe it is what you are saying that the leaves are not expresses as heaven or earth.

Best wishes Frank R

Wow! Thanks for directing me here Frank. Lots to absorb.

frank_r So the kidney belong in the fu shi sequence to earth(same as liver, who is starting the cycle. But at the same time kidney belongs to element of water which has it's expression in trigram water. (and where bladder also belongs).
yes it's really hollistic thinking from those chinese, kidney at the same time hexagram 20, 54, trigram earth and element water.

Click to expand...

Now if I'm reading this right, then for example, Hexagram 48 has Kan, Water is on the top, and Wood on the bottom. Water is the Kidneys and Wood is the Liver. What of their opposites, Bladder and Gallbladder? The five elements have a pair of meridians each, one yin and one yang, except for Fire, which has two pairs.

If you were using Hexagram 48 in a 'healing question' which would take prescidence over the other? Or would both be in question? If this Hexagram was unchanging and the person asked "What do I need to be aware of regarding my health" how would you proceed?

I know we are not allowed to diagnose a illness but we can make people aware of the inner and outer influences and forces affecting their lives.

Could you show me how you would look at this?

ravenstar

Oh oh just reread what Frank wrote in Hexagram 48. It's not associated with the Kidneys. Now I'm totally confused??

ravenstar said:

Now if I'm reading this right, then for example, Hexagram 48 has Kan, Water is on the top, and Wood on the bottom. Water is the Kidneys and Wood is the Liver. What of their opposites, Bladder and Gallbladder? The five elements have a pair of meridians each, one yin and one yang, except for Fire, which has two pairs.

ravenstar

Click to expand...

There are different ways to use the trigrams and the body relations. When you look to the Fu Shi sequence you have different trigrams for the meridians than when you use the trigrams from the King Wen sequence.

looking to 48 there is water on top, looking to the King Wen sequence water is both kidney and bladder.
And wind on the bottum is both Galbladder, liver.

When you look to the Fu Shi sequence then water is the stomach and wind is lung.
In this way you can both use the trigram associations with the meridians.

ravenstar said:

If you were using Hexagram 48 in a 'healing question' which would take prescidence over the other? Or would both be in question? If this Hexagram was unchanging and the person asked "What do I need to be aware of regarding my health" how would you proceed?

I know we are not allowed to diagnose a illness but we can make people aware of the inner and outer influences and forces affecting their lives.

Could you show me how you would look at this?
??

Click to expand...

Sometimes I use the Fu Shi associations with the meridians, sometimes the King wen associations. That happens intuitively. But mostly I use the Fu Shi associations more often(although they are less known) because only some of the trigrams have double associations

The hexagrams in the chinese clock are different associations.

ravenstar said:

Oh oh just reread what Frank wrote in Hexagram 48. It's not associated with the Kidneys. Now I'm totally confused??

Click to expand...

And the associations with the chakra's are different again.

I know you can make this very complicated. there are many associations possible between the Yi and the body.

When I use the Yi when I work in my practice as a acupuncturist I use the King Wen en Fu Shi in a sort mix. I wrote an article about the connection between DNA, I Ching and acupuncture. There I use both King Wen and Fu Shi sequence. ( http://www.frankroosen.com/dna.pdf), this together with 8 Houses system that is in the back of the Wilhelm- Barness edition. And that is used for centuries concerning ilnesses.

Frank

frank_r said:

There are different ways to use the trigrams and the body relations. When you look to the Fu Shi sequence you have different trigrams for the meridians than when you use the trigrams from the King Wen sequence.

looking to 48 there is water on top, looking to the King Wen sequence water is both kidney and bladder.
And wind on the bottum is both Galbladder, liver.

When you look to the Fu Shi sequence then water is the stomach and wind is lung.
In this way you can both use the trigram associations with the meridians.



Sometimes I use the Fu Shi associations with the meridians, sometimes the King wen associations. That happens intuitively. But mostly I use the Fu Shi associations more often(although they are less known) because only some of the trigrams have double associations

The hexagrams in the chinese clock are different associations.



And the associations with the chakra's are different again.

I know you can make this very complicated. there are many associations possible between the Yi and the body.

When I use the Yi when I work in my practice as a acupuncturist I use the King Wen en Fu Shi in a sort mix. I wrote an article about the connection between DNA, I Ching and acupuncture. There I use both King Wen and Fu Shi sequence. ( http://www.frankroosen.com/dna.pdf), this together with 8 Houses system that is in the back of the Wilhelm- Barness edition. And that is used for centuries concerning ilnesses.

Frank

Click to expand...

Thanks Frank! Is this website yours? It's well written and easy to read. Like you, I feel the Fu Shi sequence is the one I'd use. Stomach and Lungs seem to fit with Hexagram 48 as well as the planets Mercury/Moon which I believe are associated with it.

Now how do I find the Fu Shi sequence in relation to health. Is there a book or a link to this site or another site that would help me understand more? And what of the Chakras?

I have used the Sabians in health issues. But obviously the Yi Jing or I Ching is a bit more complicated. I'm still quite a newbie with it all, and am looking forward to more input from you on this. I look forward to reading more of your posts as we explore the Hexagrams more.

With Great Regards,
ravenstar

ravenstar said:

Now how do I find the Fu Shi sequence in relation to health. Is there a book or a link to this site or another site that would help me understand more? And what of the Chakras?

ravenstar

Click to expand...

Hello ravenstar,

No there is no book that I'm aware of that describe this associations with the Fu Shi sequence. This is part of the so called stem and branches theorie in acupuncture. These associations are written in severall books but I don't know what the source is. And with this it is searching and playing with it.

What hexagrams are related to the chakra's is a different subject. I will come to that later, okee.

All the best Frank

Hello from Yi Jin Jing

I see many of the members are acupuncturists. I belong to a Shaolin school named Yi Jin Jing (Scripture of Changing the Meridians) and I am in my 5th year of practice. Still a begginer, anyway.

I never studied medicine, chinese medicine or qi gong before but nevertheless I got some insight by being immersed in the practice and interactions with (old and very old) school members.

I had to notice a principle applied there: they all search for simplicity. For instance if the energy is blocked somewhere in the body they do not seek as a treatment to unblock some portion of the meridian to reestablish the proper flow of qi. Instead they analize the root source and mainly this is accumulated toxins in the blood. The treatment goes straigth to the blood and all blocked meridians are released at once (if the disease is strong, it may require 2 treatments, one for lateral meridians and another for central ones).

Also the diagnosys method is quite strainghtforward and the patient himself can see his problems: a big quantity of wei qi is pushed out from the healer into the palm of the patient. Usually this strong flow contracts the muscles and if there is any blockage in the body the qi is reflected back and stationary waves appear. The result is that the muscles contracts and relax alternatley, while if there is no blockage they just stay contracted.

Of course, to maintain the health and cultivate we should do the practice according to the recommendations and there is influence around us that can be divinated by using I Ching. Wise people know how to do that, I hope to become one eventually.

Here are some resources: the health rules - about 100 of them - that encompass many of the aspects in this topic http://yijinjing.ro/health-rules/ , and the video of wei qi diagnostics (I think you can select the English subtitles if they do not appear automatically - if not possible just see the video on YouTube, they are there http://yijinjing.ro/video-diagnosticare-cu-wei-qi/). Enjoy.

I am really appreciative of this thread. I have nothing really to chime in with because I am just starting to see the correlations and look into it. I have been thinking a lot about this connection. The meridians attract me just as much as the I Ching. Thanks for the info.