Over at the I Ching Community, Demitra has shared some readings about vegetarianism and meat-eating: not just which is right for her, but what each means for humanity as a whole. Have a look at those readings here (they’re very interesting, and not what anyone from either side of the argument might expect or want to hear). And for continuing discussion of whether this kind of ‘impersonal question’ is legitimate, and whether there’s any point to it, see this page.
Not so long ago I shared a reading about the two-slit experiment. I thought it was a beautiful reading, a perfect sign of Yi’s quiet sense of humour on a truly cosmic scale. Rapier, who posted comments, thought that it was an example of improper questioning.
And a year or so back I asked Yi what we should do when we can’t understand its answer. When I shared this reading at the I Ching Community, there was one member who was profoundly morally indignant that I should ask such a disrespectful question. He never would tell me why it was disrespectful; I think perhaps he felt that if I couldn’t see this for myself, I was a lost cause.
Well… I still don’t see it. 😀
Nothing could feel more natural to me than to talk with the oracle about whatever preoccupies me, whatever fills my imagination and pushes at the boundaries of my understanding – especially that! It’s not as if we could somehow injure the Yijing by asking the ‘wrong’ kind of question. Can we hurt ourselves? Not, in my opinion, by asking more and seeing more.
The only way I can think of that people do hurt themselves with oracle is by handing their autonomy over to it. (Though Yi has its own ways of throwing it straight back.) So with personal questions, I reckon it’s more important to have a ‘direction to go’ for the reading – to ask yourself why you’re consulting, and what (or how) you hope to change in response.
Comments?
In my opinion, the moment you turn to divination for knowledge or advice, you have already lost your autonomy as a human being. You are saying, in effect, I cannot solve my own problems with my own resources, the Yi will solve them for me. This is a profound abdication of selfhood, a loss of self-reliance, and a desperate foray into the irrational, where no rules apply.
No rules apply to the Yi. On what basis could they exist? What are the axioms and assumptions of divination?
There are reasonable ways to seek advice. One might seek out people with training, experience, or authority. Problem-solving is not a mystical art. Known techniques exist, research has been done. Beware of anyone who cannot say what they are doing but insist they are doing the right thing. Hocus-pocus and mumbo-jumbo still walk the land for all to see.
So a discussion about what kinds of questions the Yi can or cannot answer is an absurdity. The Yi can answer any question. There are no rules. But in a more profound sense, the Yi cannot answer any question. It does not exist as an independent source of counsel, it is a recursive tool, self-referential. There is only an illusion of agency, but you are doing it all yourself. Wherever you go, there you are.
So when you have a problem, why not seek real help? Why not forget about the Yi, and “go to see a great person” without all the folderol and flap-doodle?
Bob
Hello again, ‘Bob’. 🙂
No, I’m not.
Because consulting Yi works better. Also, it tends to generate a lot less flap-doodle.
(You realise, of course, that I’m going to end up with a top Google ranking for “folderol and flap-doodle” now?)
All questions, without exception, are valid in divination.
There are many wonderful people out there where one can turn to for ideas and advice, certainly, and when the outer conditions are truly necessary and fitting, we hopefully grasp the opportunity to do so. Yet, are other people in general truly open to entertaining ALL the questions we might have, capable of complete objectivity and impartiality to our concerns ALL the time, AND available to accomodate us 24hrs a day as it conveniences us?
Only we, with the aid of some divining tool, can accomodate ourselves in this way. And of course, the objectivity and impartiality of good divination is meant to be honed and developed through such practices.
The way I see it, tools like I Ching and the Tarot do not take away anyone’s autonomy in the least. If anything, they provide us with the ideal conditions that force us to look more closely in on ourselves for the solution to our concerns which afterall lies here to begin with. When one practices the art of divination long enough, one realizes this truth.
I believe the answer lies in the Tao Teh Ching, as they work together in explaining Tao
“He who keeps the Tao does not want to be full.
But precisely because he is never full,
He can always remain like a hidden sprout,
And does not rush to early ripening.”
Tao Teh Ching #15
After asking the question and getting the answer from the I-Ching, help is provided by the Tao. It is to the person to understand, what the answer really means. It does not mean an immediate understanding, yet providing another angle to the question, situation, thoughts and feelings.
Get a glass of water and put some soil into the glass . Then stir it. What does it look like ? Most probably it will resemble your mind when you were looking for the answer. Wait for some time and everything will settle down, bringing back the clarity again both to the glass of water and to your mind.
That is like the moment you have an understanding of the answer.
Stir the water again so goes the clearness away, same as you restart thinking about the answer, as you can relate more things to the situation and the question. Wait and it will be clear water again.
Hence, when you ask a question and seek guidance from the I Ching, wait till the water is clear. Even if you do not understand the answer at the beginning wait till the dust sets down so your vision is clear.
I know many people who ask a question and when they get an answer they again seek an answer from I-Ching for the answer they have got for the first question.
“Practice Non-Ado and everything will be in order”
Tao Teh Ching #3
“One might seek out people with training, experience, or authority.”
And this is not losing your autonomy? Giving your own power of healing in the hands of a human being, with all the personal ideas that come with it.
When I consult the Yi, it makes me listen to my own intuition. That can be such a faint voice that I often cannot hear it. Yi gives clues, triggers hunches, removes the barriers rational thinking so often puts in the way of finding what I really need.
Found my own autonomy through it.
There are certain flows of events that
are happening. I cannot properly
understand them at times. I have been
an ignorant person. So when I ask about
something very important and have a proper
state of mind then the oracle helps me.
It is better to not be a willful person.
By asking about an important decision
I am showing that I respect the knowing
and wisdom of the oracle.
Nelson
Bob is exactly right. Reality is like a harp, with one harpist. Using the Yi is like having someone get up from the audience and pull on a string as the harpist plays. As the amount of people using the oracle increases, the melody of creation is disrupted and becomes a cacaphony. This book shapes reality rather than foretelling it. It is a magical tool which should not be consulted.
Very interesting view. The Great Treatise does imply that Yi participates in change, rather than just talking about it, though it’s hard to know quite what it means…
Personally, I think reality is more like a symphony orchestra. Or maybe an ‘instant Messiah’. (For non-English readers: an open invitation to everyone to bring their own copy and come and sing.)
Everyone already lost their autonomy. Everyone has a superego that coerces them into limiting themselves (52.3). This superego creates a lot of ignorance about who we really are and what we really want, and an oracle like the I Ching is one way to get around it. It allowes us to tap into real will, instead of being at the mercy of the fake will of the superego. So the I Ching is actually a way of regaining our autonomy.
I’m not saying that the I Ching is the perfect way to become aligned with real will. I do think it’s better to do away with the superego eventually (which is only an aid anyway). But until then it’s a great help.
I asked the question that karshner mentioned
in his book – who are you, how do I relate
to you and received the answer of #30 with
3 nines –
the resulting hexagram is 23, I think.
Anyway it was such an interesting answer.
I had the answer of Great exceeding with a
resulting hexagram of 31 just the other day.
The i ching certainly follows a pattern.
It always gets your attention.
nelson
Hi Hilary!
Nice blog you have here. It is a good and active site for Yi students to mix with the more experienced readers from all over the world.
Hi everyone!
From the perspectives of using the Yi as a Book of Wisdom and/or an Oracle everyone is right!
Only those who are obsessed with repeated questionings on frivolous matters over a short spate of time get a reprimand from the Yi. This shows the lack of sincerity in the diviner. One does observe this occasionally among new students mainly because of their own exuberance or being misguided sometimes by seniors in forums. When the same hexagram appears several times in a row it is time to sit up and take note. The Yi wants to tell you something. No autonomy is handed over to the Yi if one knows what one is doing or what has to be done with no obsession. Otherwise how can earnest Yi students ever become a Junzi in time to come!
Preponderance over both the question (before it is asked) and the answer is of equal importance. Sincerity and seriousness of purpose required for a divination is an often quoted advice. As Bob quite rightly said, any question to the Yi will be answered. But was the question correct in the first place and did the Yi really speak to the diviner have to be considered by those who want to help in an interpretation of the answer.
Demitra’s diverse questions to the Yi were sincere and serious. And she did research on nutrition before asking. Therefore she was not wrong in asking a universal nutrition question that can affect the human species (for her new book).
Although one may not be qualified to interpret the answers, here is a tip for neidan (inner alchemy) practitioners. You may have to abstain from all kinds of meat when you want to progress to a higher spiritual level.
Under my states law, I am deemed to have a psychiatric illness, namely a bipolar mood disorder or in the old days they called it manic depression. I just think I’ve had a turbulent life. Like the glass of water with mud that has been stirred too much and never allowed to settle either from without or within. So, the system grabs me, shoves me in an institution where they order me to take sodium valproate at fourteen hundred milligrams a day. The same system that hates heroin or marijuana. So, to comply by the rules and keep the peace, I take that and also seek the counsel and advice of their clinical psychologist once a month.
I would love it if he gave me a clue, an idea, a response, an answer, a suggestion. But he just drags all the muddy water from my head and jots it in his note pad, bulk bills the appointment and never says boo about anything. I once asked if he thought I was psychic or crazy. He admitted that he gets about six patients a year who are psychic and that yes, there is some indication of that in my notes, but thats as far as he goes. No affirmations, no advice, no comfort, no smile, nothing to go on but the date of the next appointment.
At least with the Yi I get to see the Images and Judgement and lines and work out the muddy water for myself. So as for seeing some great man, I see a so called great man once a month and as far as I’m concerned, one good session with the Yi puts all his down the drain. I only go to comply with the system and not make waves.