60. Chich / Limitation

rosada · Oct 4, 2009

-- --
----- above KAN THE ABYSMAL, WATER
-- --
-- --
----- below TUI THE JOYOUS, LAKE
-- --

A lake occupies a limited space. When more water comes into it, it overflows. Therefore limits must be set for the water. The image shows water below and water above, with the firmament between them as a limit.
The Chinese word for limitation really denotes the joints that divide a bamboo stalk. In relation to ordinary life it means the thrift that sets fixed limits upon expenditures. In relation to the moral sphere it means the fixed limits the superior man sets upon his actions - the limits of loyalty and disinterestedness.
-Wilhelm

Sparhawk · Oct 4, 2009

meng · Oct 4, 2009

photo and flutes by coyote

tuckchang · Oct 5, 2009

According to Confucius’s remarks on the hexagram text: 剛柔分而剛得中, i.e. rigidity and tenderness separate, and (by virtue of this) rigidity attains the center position, it can be understood as per the attached sketch that Chich is formed after the top line of the trigram Chien (perseverance, the sky) separates from the other masculine lines and ascends to the middle position of the trigram Kun (submission, the earth) to occupy the core position and to restrict the feminine line; the middle line of the trigram Kun separates from the other feminine lines and descends to the top position of the trigram Chien to restrict the masculine line.

Tuck :bows:

rosada · Oct 5, 2009

60.

The ruler of the hexagram is the nine in the fifth place. Only a man who is honored, and who possesses the necessary spiritual power for the task, can establish measure and mean for holding the world within bounds. Hence it is said in the Commentary on the Decision: "In the appropriate place, in order to limit; central and correct, in ofder to unite.

The Sequence

Things cannot be forever separate. Hence there follows the hexagram of LIMITATION.

MISCELLANEOUS NOTES

LIMITATION means stopping.

This hexagram is the inverse of the preceding one, but the inner structure and the interrelationships of nuclear trigrams are the same in both. Here water is held together by the lake, while in the preceding hexagram water is dispersed by the wind.
-Wilhelm

meng · Oct 6, 2009

While I'm sure some get the flute metaphor, for the sake of any who might not: I chose the image of wooden flutes to represent the delineating quality of 60. Frets on a guitar neck would illustrate just as well. In both cases, the lines do not delineate evenly or equally, necessarily, but they are regulated according to the desired pitch and scale. Time pieces, on the other hand, are measured equally. A piano keyboard is like a time piece, but the inner workings are more like the flute and guitar neck. In either case, it is the regulation of particulars, the infinite to the individual. Theoretically, all notes are playing at once. Can't make any sense of that, so it breaks down into particulars, or particles, according to our contextual need or want; to make a song, for example.

rosada · Oct 6, 2009

It's a wonderful image, meng. Reminds me that without imitations, number and measure we could not make music!

I am going to be away from a computer again for about a week.

meng · Oct 6, 2009

meng said:
In either case, it is the regulation of particulars, the infinite to the individual.

Thought I'd mention this is just the opposite of 59, where the finite relinquishes to the infinite.

Hurry back, Rosada.

Trojina · Oct 6, 2009

rosada said:
I am going to be away from a computer again for about a week.

Yeah well Jax can sit up now, put him at the computer in your place, hes quite capable as we can see
here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uyY3PpuGKg never too young to memorise some Wilhelm !

fkegan · Oct 7, 2009

Hex 60 as simplicity manifest

The wonder of hexagram 60 is that it represents the final quiescent fulfillment of its set. The flowing water has come to rest within the local topography to form a lake. It is an achievement of a great symphony of forces and developments though it just sits there quietly reflecting the sky. What started in the Divine power manifest in awesome thunder has settled out as simple limitation of possibilities within local available structure.

Frank

rodaki · Oct 7, 2009

hex 60 was largely misunderstood by me until I got it's regulating function

(have posted that before but I though it would be nice to have it here too . .)

meng · Oct 7, 2009

rodaki said:
hex 60 was largely misunderstood by me until I got it's regulating function

"Work is more than force acting through distance; it is, in fact, the constrained release of energy, the release of energy into a small number of degrees of freedom."

Awesome.

rodaki · Oct 7, 2009

that's a great one . . I keep finding the potential in that over and over again . . in keeping time, in turning thoughts into words and then words into rhythm
. . it feels very much like a circular movement, kinda like the potter's wheel that makes a recurring sound on which clay is shaped . . will try to find a vid that shows that . .

my_key · Oct 7, 2009

These posts have reminded me of a piece I read a few days ago by Jamie Sams in her book "Earth Medicine". She is talking about INFINITE CREATION.
"The movements of the Great Mystery, being Infinite Creation are expressed by life. Everything in the universe moves, evolves, changes and grows....... Everything is animated by the Great Mystery, which is the universe and infinite creation......... Infinite is simply that - without limit. Eternal is simply that - without time. Creation is simply that, desire and manifestation. To separate any parts of the whole is to be party to the human denial of embracing our own creativity. Fear of seperation keeps us from using the gift of creative drive without reservation."

This seemed to echo the essence of Wilhelms comments on "Things cannot be forever seperate" and the other observations so eloquently captured by Frank, Meng and Rodaki.

Rodaki

hex 60 was largely misunderstood by me until I got it's regulating function

What a great post!! My lecturers never managed to explain annealing to me in the same way during my Metallurgy studies. Perhaps if I was paying more attention I would have latched on sooner to the notion of it being the constraint which produces the freedom.

Meng

Awesome.

Continuing the metallurgical theme........Did you mean Ore-some?
Or is that not refined enough for you ?

Mike

rodaki · Oct 8, 2009

thnx Mike!

couldn't find a potter's wheel vid that showed what I meant but maybe found sth else on my way . . will post later, would love to get feedback

have to run!

rodaki · Oct 8, 2009

(totally forgot to wish Rosada . . safe trip dear Rosada!)

. . another thing I got to thinking in relation to hex. 60 was the metronome . . and looking for a clip abt metronomes i run into this
. . the logic is simple . . IF a number of metronomes are working in the same frequency and IF they are resting on a ground that allows some leeway THEN nature's physics will make sure that the system will regulate itself and will reach synchronization in due time
. . could this be an apt way to picture hex. 60's idea that regulation is good as long as it is not too strict??

and on the ORE theme . . I recently found myself owning a piece of pyrite. Half of the stone is still n matrix, the other half reveals a complex pattern of set structures

. . looking at it made me wonder abt the way crystals are made . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal

reads like a natural smithy at work, no?

(truth is, I came across a clip that captured the potter's sound effect I was looking for, but thought it was a bit too long . . here it is if people want to take a look)

rosada · Oct 9, 2009

Thank you all for the good wishes. We are living in a VW bus this week doing the hippy thing driving up and down the California coast. I have access for a moment to a friend's computer so I just wanted to post a thought about Limitation, inspired by rodaki's #11 comment above. Have you noticed when consulting the I Ching how often your question will be about something way off in the distant future - Like "How will my business fare?" - and you are looking for some sort of grand summation - like "48.The Well" - but instead the I Ching will give you a response that focuses your attention on the immediate future - Like "3. Difficulty at the Beginning"? This ability to get a person to focus on the next step seems to me to have something to do with hexagram 60. Limitation.
-Rosada

my_key · Oct 10, 2009

While we are waiting for Rosada here's a little musical interlude

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipOz_k9zvzo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNd5R7FQBFg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkTQUtx818w

Mike

my_key · Oct 11, 2009

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showpost.php?p=98730&postcount=54

This post from Meng in another thread seemed worthy of record here, especially the words in quotes.

Mike

rosada · Oct 11, 2009

THE JUDGEMENT

LIMITATION. SUCCESS.
Galling limitation must not be persevered in.

Limitations are troublesome, but they are effective. If we live economically in normal times, we are prepared for times of want. To be sparing saves us from humiliation. Limitations are also indispensable in the regulation of world conditions. In nature there are fixed limits for summer and winter, day and night, and these limits give the year its meaning. In the same way economy, by setting fixed limits upon expenditures, acts to preserve property and prevent injury to the people.
But in limitation we must observe due measure. If a man should seek to impose galling limitations upon his own nature, it would be injurious. And if he should go too far in imposing limitations on others, they would rebel. Therefore it is necessary to set limits even upon limitation.
-Wilhelm

rosada · Oct 12, 2009

THE JUDGEMENT

LIMITATION. Success.
Galling limitation must not be persevered in.

COMMENTARY ON THE DECISION

"Limitation. Success." The firm and the yielding are equally divided, and the firm has attained the middle places.
"Galling limitation must not be persevered in," because its way comes to an end.
Joyous in passing through danger; in the appropriate place, in order to limit; central and correct, in order to unite.
Heaven and earth have their limitations, and the four seasons of the year arise.
Where limitation is applied in the creation of institutions, property is not encroached upon, and people are not harmed.
-Wilhelm

rosada · Oct 12, 2009

There are three yang lines and three yin lines symmetrically distributed - first two yang lines, then two yin lines, then one of each. Hence there are strong lines in the two central places, and the second and the fifth.

To persist in galling limitation would lead to failure. But owing to the central and moderate behavior of the ruler of the hexagram, the nine in the fifth place, this danger is overcome. Joyousness is the attribute of the lower trigram Tui, and danger that of the upper trigram K'an. The limitation of the ruler of the hexagram is brought about by the two yin lines between which it stands. But owing to its central and correct position, it attains an all-pervading influence.`

Limitation - division into periods - is the means of dividing time. Thus in China the year is divided into twenty-four chieh ch'i, which, being in harmony with atmospheric phenomena, make it possible for man to arrange his agricultural activities so that they harmonize with the course of the seasons. The limitation or suitable division of production and consumption was one of the most important problems of good government in ancient China. Fundamental principles pertaining to this problem are also indicated in the present hexagram.
-Wilhelm

fkegan · Oct 13, 2009

Limitation - division into periods - is the means of dividing time... The limitation or suitable division of production and consumption was one of the most important problems of good government in ancient China. Fundamental principles pertaining to this problem are also indicated in the present hexagram.

Hi Rosada,
Along with the usual line place and trigram imagery commentary, here we have a bit about this specific hexagram. It is flowing water upon the lake which yields the usual observed reality: streams come upon a change in the topography that allows the water to accumulate as a lake.

The notion is the return to natural ordering and implicit limitation. The lake is filled with water to remain a stable feature, although it may well have some streams flowing out of it as well.

As the tenth hexagram in the set begun with hex 51 thunderstruck, it represents how the quiescent end of the remarkable process begun by the terror of the thunderbolt is the return to natural limitation and peaceful reality.

Frank

rosada · Oct 13, 2009

We've had car trouble and have been holed up in a motel for the last three days. It hasn't been too bad, if you're destined to have car trouble this is probably a better way to go through it than many other possibilities, but I've had enough already. The Limitation is getting a bit galling...
rosada

rosada · Oct 13, 2009

Hi Frank,
Looking at your comment about the formation of the lake and this hexagram being the completion of the cycle begun at 51. Do you have any further thoughts on this? I'm poking around with ideas like 50 being the primordial soup where all the elements are present but undifferentiated. Then 51 being the awareness of individual uniqueness and the next nine hexagrams being about how this individual uniqueness developes to create a consciousness that is not lost, even when the molecules of the body must 59.Disperse. 60. Limitation then would represent the stage where there is no movement in the outer world - the body dead in the coffin - and the soul goes on to 61. Inner Truth.

Meanwhile having my own little 60 moment here in the motel waiting for some obscure 1972 VW part to be fedexed from across the universe. Not too bad really when we take it one day at a time but I'm getting a bit anxious cause I'm supposed to be back with Jax by Thursday. Guess the answer is found in THE IMAGE...

rosada · Oct 13, 2009

THE IMAGE

Water over the lake: the image of LIMITATION:
Thus the superior man
Creates number and measure,
And examines the nature of virtue and correct
conduct.

rosada · Oct 13, 2009

A lake is something limited. Water is inexhaustible. A lake can contain only a definite amount of the infinite quantity of water; this is its peculiarity. In human life too the individual achieves significance through discrimination and the setting of limits. Therefore what concerns us here is the problem of clearly defining these discriminations, which are, so to speak, the backbone of morality. Unlimited possibilities are not suited to man; if they existed, his life would only dissolve in the boundless. {see 58.6} To become strong, a man's life needs the limitations ordained by duty and voluntarily accepted. The individual attains significance as a free spirit only by surrounding himself with these limitations and by determining for himself what his duty is.
-Wilhelm

maremaria · Oct 13, 2009

rosada said:
THE IMAGE

Water over the lake: the image of LIMITATION:
Thus the superior man
Creates number and measure,
And examines the nature of virtue and correct
conduct.

The other day I was listening to someone talking about taboos and this hex seems to fit to that subject.

rosada · Oct 14, 2009

motel haiku

Woman sits.
Nothing changes.
Who writes this sh*t?

rosada · Oct 14, 2009

The idea of number and measure is indicated by the reciprocal relationship between water and lake. Creating corresponds with the trigram Tui, mouth. The idea of number and measure - the resting, firm -corresponds with the upper nuclear trigram Ken. The idea of virtue and conduct - the mobile, active - corresponds with the lower trigram Chen.
-Wilhelm

60.
-- --
-----
-- --

== ==
==== Creating corresponds with the trigram Tui.
====

60.
-- --

====
== == The idea of number and measure - resting, firm - corresponds with the upper
== == nuclear trigram Ken.

-----
-----

60.
-- --
----

== ==
== ==
==== The idea of virtue and conduct - mobile active - corresponds with nuclear trigram Chen.
-----

60. Chich / Limitation

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