58. Tui / The Joyous, Lake

rosada · Aug 4, 2009

58. Tui / The Joyous, Lake

-- --
----- above TUI THE JOYOUS, LAKE
-----
-- --
----- below TUI THE JOYOUS, LAKE
-----

This hexagram, like Sun, is one of the eight formed by doubling of a trigram. The trigram Tui denotes the youngest daughter; it is symbolized by the smiling lake, and its attribute is joyousness. Contrary to appearances, it is not the yielding quality of the top line that accounts for the joy here. The attribute of the yielding or dark principle is not joy but melancholy. However, joy is indicated by the fact that there are two strong lines within, expressing themselves through the medium of gentleness.
True joy, therefore, rests on firmness and strength within, manifesting itself outwardly as yielding and gentle.

True joy, therefore, rests on firmness and strength within, manifesting itself outwardly as yielding and gentle.
-Wilhelm

Sparhawk · Aug 4, 2009

fkegan · Aug 4, 2009

Hex 58 from its line structure...

Here is an intriguing hexagram with so many special features and symbolism. Also a hexagram that is generally either very clear or very obscure when it comes up as an Oracle . The deep lake may smile in waves on its surface, but its depths are not easy to see into.

From its structure, it has 4 Yang lines and thus it is process with two open Yin places in the third and final positions. The open Yin third place removes the personal or individual power or pressure pushing the process to be about individual self-expression.

The open Yin final place keeps the process from moving on to what comes next. This represents discussion without either a direction to go all the way toward what comes next or express what is truly individual passion and personal motivation.

It is the friendly happy hour discussion without anyone intensely scoping out who can be hit upon and taken home. Therefore a great open community chat.

Frank

charly · Aug 4, 2009

rosada said:
58. Tui / The Joyous, Lake
... The trigram Tui denotes the youngest daughter; it is symbolized by the smiling lake, and its attribute is joyousness ... True joy ... rests on firmness and strength within, manifesting itself outwardly as yielding and gentle... W/B

Rosada:

兌
dui4

to exchange / to barter / to cash // ... to weaken by adding water // joy / cheerful talk

... the name of H.58, has two components:

upper (outer) 八 ba1, eight / split, an old style broken line
lower (inner) 兄xiong1 elder brother / a term used in addressing a senior of the same generation to show respect.

A Senior, firmness and strenght, geting into the middle of the broken line, or between the two flexible lines, the gentle. True JOY in words of W/B.

For continuity with H.57, I'm tempted to say «penetration allowed», but after the communist simplification dui4 became 兑 «penetration resisted». May be that's the idea of which dui4 laughts. (1)

Yours,

Charly

___________________________________________
(1) Of what the ... does the hyenna laugh?

Hyena's laugh actually a sign of frustration
Subordinate animals actually emit more giggles than the dominant ones
Scientists found that hyena's usually giggle when they were fighting for food, or in some kind of social conflict.

From: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30588225/

fkegan · Aug 5, 2009

Hex 58 by its King Wen Sequence numbering...

Hex 58 is the 8th hexagram in the final full decad beginning with the Monad hex 51 about the thunderbolt that strikes the individual in their heart--not a lightning bolt of electricity more like Cupid's arrow or the sudden realization of what must be done (Cf. Wilhelm hex51 line 3--sort of).

Within that decad this is the 8th hexagram, the dynamic polar opposite or dichotomy of the x-axis of timing development. The ceaseless fluid motion of Flux, seen in hex 57 as the sustained winds or growing wood here has become the fluid accumulation of running waters into a set of deep lakes. When you are struck by Cupid's arrow your fluid restlessness will eventually bring you to the set of topographical elevations where your energies are still moving lake to lake but not flowing wild. It will only be the next pair 59 and 60 that will finally solve the restless energy problem and fit the water precisely to its ultimate lake like Cinderella's slipper exactly fitting her foot.

Frank

my_key · Aug 5, 2009

the dynamic polar opposite or dichotomy of the x-axis of timing development.

Hi Frank
Give us a clue

Is this saying...and some fell on stony ground?
You've told us where Cinderella's slipper is in 59 and 60 which I understand, however I've lost track of where the slipper is residing is in Hex 58.

Mike

charly · Aug 5, 2009

fkegan said:
... dynamic polar opposite ... dichotomy of the x-axis ... ceaseless fluid motion ... sustained winds or growing wood ... fluid accumulation of running waters ... a set of deep lakes... struck by Cupid's arrow ... eventually bring you to the set of topographical elevations ... your energies are still moving ... but not flowing wild... solve the restless energy problem ... Cinderella's slipper exactly fitting her foot.
...

Hi, Frank:

My mind doesn't believe what my eyes read!

Everibody knows that the slipper did lead Cinderella towards marriage, say, the Prince arms. And wasn't Cinderella the only girl that had a slipper, remember Aphrodite...

Yours,

Charly

______________________
(1) «slipper: type of footwear, 1478, from slip (v.), the notion being of a shoe that is "slipped" onto the foot.» [from: www.Etymonline.com]

my_key · Aug 7, 2009

Hex 58 - Following the homecoming there is a real chance to party. Taking all the new things you have brought home with you and putting them on display for all to see.

I must admit I'm having a bit of a blank regarding Luis's picture. OK so we have the huge violet influx coming in, however I'm struggling to make sense of the youngest daughter playing blind mans bluff.

What sort of comments do others have on the picture in this card?
Mike

Trojina · Aug 7, 2009

my_key said:
I must admit I'm having a bit of a blank regarding Luis's picture. OK so we have the huge violet influx coming in, however I'm struggling to make sense of the youngest daughter playing blind mans bluff.

What sort of comments do others have on the picture in this card?
Mike

'Violet influx' ? No idea what you mean ? do you mean big purple flower is called influx ?

I just interpreted the card as having fun, party games, joy. I find 58 is much to do with those kind of occasions, fun, lots of chattering, sharing, games may come into it...even blind mans buff.

Huge violet influx ? Please enlighten me Mykey or i shan't sleep wondering what on earth you can mean

my_key · Aug 8, 2009

trojan said:
'
Huge violet influx ? Please enlighten me Mykey or i shan't sleep wondering what on earth you can mean

Violet - Colour representing spirituality or cosmic consciousness; the seventh and highest quality an individual can attain; holy lovehttp://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Violet/id/72698# attained through the highest spiritual devotion; represents honour, spirituality and self-esteem

Purple - all I get is aubergines

Mike

Trojina · Aug 8, 2009

my_key said:
Violet - Colour representing spirituality or cosmic consciousness; the seventh and highest quality an individual can attain; holy lovehttp://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Violet/id/72698# attained through the highest spiritual devotion; represents honour, spirituality and self-esteem

Purple - all I get is aubergines

Mike

so why would you have a huge violet influx in 58 ?

my_key · Aug 8, 2009

Hi Trojan

I hope you managed to grab some sleep.

trojan said:
so why would you have a huge violet influx in 58 ?

Why not?
Symbolically perhaps the plant is an influx of spirituality. Who knows? It probably depends on what perspective is taken from Hex's 51 onwards and particularly Hex 57.
Karcher's Total I Ching gives an interesting model for Hex 58 which he relates to the Joyous Dancer a spirit medium who calls down, mates with and speaks for the spirits. She is the stimulating and loosening one, persuasive speech, delight and freedom from constraint, the Joyous Dancer whose words make the spirit present here among us.

Working through the subtle penetration of Hex57, Hex 58 stimulates you into greater expression of your self. You can take all the opportunities presented to you to open up and be yourself, come out of your shell and show your true colours. Then bask in the pleasure and joy this brings.

Perhaps people have other views which would be good to hear expressed.

Mike

Trojina · Aug 8, 2009

I did sleep thanks but had some strange dreams of large violet influxes.

.anyway thanks for explaining. I find Karcher quite good on 58, yes ease of opening up in all kinds of ways in 58.

my_key · Aug 8, 2009

Some Hex 58 videos?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqtAkvVCI-8
The Van Morrison lyrics are pretty cool ......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaZCZnmdmbA&NR=1&feature=fvwp
........as is Mick Jagger - The Joyous Dancer

or for something completely different......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxak...2B16A6CD&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=10

martinus · Aug 13, 2009

As far as I know the World of thought arrangement (Fu Hsi' s order) shines through tthe seasonal order (King Wen's). This consequently also applies to the hexagrams. In case of Dui we get 29, the Abysmal. I can get a deeper insight when including this "matrix"- E.g. "behind" Waiting there is Modesty, behind Modesty we find Increase. Or (very beautiful) behind Innocence there is Grace.
But how should one interprete the Abysmal "looming" behind Dui? "Quiet waters may be deep?"

(I'm a newbee, asking for indulgence should this be 'old stuff' ...)

Sparhawk · Aug 13, 2009

Hi Martinus, and welcome,

martinus said:
As far as I know the World of thought arrangement (Fu Hsi' s order) shines through tthe seasonal order (King Wen's). This consequently also applies to the hexagrams. In case of Dui we get 29, the Abysmal. I can get a deeper insight when including this "matrix"- E.g. "behind" Waiting there is Modesty, behind Modesty we find Increase. Or (very beautiful) behind Innocence there is Grace.
But how should one interprete the Abysmal "looming" behind Dui? "Quiet waters may be deep?"

(I'm a newbee, asking for indulgence should this be 'old stuff' ...)

No need for indulgence as it appears you come prepared.

I haven't searched the archives but it is likely this has been discussed/mentioned before. However, it is a nice and good observation to keep in mind when interpreting readings.

my_key · Aug 13, 2009

martinus said:
As far as I know the World of thought arrangement (Fu Hsi' s order) shines through tthe seasonal order (King Wen's). This consequently also applies to the hexagrams. In case of Dui we get 29, the Abysmal. I can get a deeper insight when including this "matrix"- E.g. "behind" Waiting there is Modesty, behind Modesty we find Increase. Or (very beautiful) behind Innocence there is Grace.
But how should one interprete the Abysmal "looming" behind Dui? "Quiet waters may be deep?"

(I'm a newbee, asking for indulgence should this be 'old stuff' ...)

Hi Martinus
Perhaps it's something like the opportunity for expression of our true self comes from us picking up the gauntlet and confronting our fears.

Mike

charly · Aug 13, 2009

my_key said:
...
I must admit I'm having a bit of a blank regarding Luis's picture. OK so we have the huge violet influx coming in, however I'm struggling to make sense of the youngest daughter playing blind mans bluff.
What sort of comments do others have on the picture in this card?
Mike

Mike:

If you see the structure of the image maybe you will perceive some concentric organization:

1) in the center there is a boy surrounded by three young girls, maybe sisters or cousins, the boy is blinded, they are playing to the «blind fowl» (?)

2) the proper picture has a middle ring formed by the three young women that are enjoying the game, maybe waiting the moment when one of them be caught by the boy.

3) In the lower left corner of the proper picture there are the leaves of a plant of gigantic proportions maybe due to the perspective, that give to all the picture a sense intensely YIN, the plant controls all the situation, like the hands of destiny. Close to the leave butterflies flying reminds ZhuangZi, life is a dream, or maybe joy is ephemeral.

4) the upper band with the character 兌 dui4 the hexagram and the two trigram symbols, the lower an lateral bands with chinese characters, form an outer ring or mark for the picture. This outer ring is of course the Changes, represented by his symbols ands characters.

An individual controlled by social environmet, social environment controlled by life or destiny, the Changes controlling all.

Moral:

There are no joy without women.
Joy is vulnerable and passing, destiny waits from any corner.
To play with women is dangerous.
Boys that do it are blinded, maybe for love.
But live is a dream.
Thus, who does matter danger?

Questions:

What passes by the mind of the boy?
Did he read at the Changes «in the field catch three 品 pin3»?

Then the picture is about:

THE DANGEROUS GAME OF LOVE

... or al least I beleve so.

Yours,

Charly

__________________________________________
(1) About DUI:

... 兌 ... already appears on the oracle bones, with possibly three meanings ...

1. The name of a person
2. meaning 閱 'to examine, investigate', mostly combined with 田 'fields'. This combination is probably equal to 蒐田, 'captures/captives of a hunt or battle'.
3. meaning 銳, 'sharp, fast', mostly combined with fa 伐 'attack'...

In other texts, like ... the Daodejing ... 兌 refers to an opening, or forcing an opening

From: Harmen Mesker
at: http://i-tjingcentrum.nl/serendipity/categories/3-Character-analysis

martinus · Aug 14, 2009

my_key said:
Hi Martinus
Perhaps it's something like the opportunity for expression of our true self comes from us picking up the gauntlet and confronting our fears.

Mike

This sounds "reasonable" -
Quite a lot of things can push up from the depth of the lake "whose surface lies so quiet The enticing waters of the lake can suggest the idea of destruction and ruin.."- This is what I found in a text by Diana ffarington Hook.

As to the colour violet - isn't it a funny coincidence that I arranged and took this photo - Dui (more or less violet) ?? http://www.ipernity.com/doc/wesselklaus/5652339

charly · Aug 14, 2009

THE JUDGMENT

THE JOYOUS. Success.
Perseverance is favorable.

The joyous mood is infectious and therefore brings success. But joy must be based on steadfastness if it is not to degenerate into uncontrolled mirth.
Truth and strength must dwell in the heart, while gentleness reveals itself in social intercourse. In this way one assumes the right attitude toward God and man and achieves something. Under certain conditions, intimidation without gentleness may achieve something momentarily, but not for all time. When, on the other hand, the hearts of men are won by friendliness, they are led to take all hardships upon themselves willingly, and if need be will not shun death itself, so great is the power of joy over men.

WHILHELM/BAYNES

兌亨。
利貞。

dui4 heng1.
li4 zhen1.

Ch.

martinus · Aug 14, 2009

"But joy must be based on steadfastness if it is not to degenerate into uncontrolled mirth."

This has a lot to say about what one might call the circus of total entertainment - there is indeed the Abysmal lying in ambush.

my_key · Aug 14, 2009

martinus said:
This sounds "reasonable" -
Quite a lot of things can push up from the depth of the lake "whose surface lies so quiet The enticing waters of the lake can suggest the idea of destruction and ruin.."- This is what I found in a text by Diana ffarington Hook.

As to the colour violet - isn't it a funny coincidence that I arranged and took this photo - Dui (more or less violet) ?? http://www.ipernity.com/doc/wesselklaus/5652339

Hi Martinus
There is also an old saying" Still waters run deep"............
The picture is very beautiful. It's clear that a lot of love has gone into it's composition.
Nothing funny coincidental at all .A lot of weird things happen when Violet is in the picture

Hey Charly

An individual controlled by social environmet, social environment controlled by life or destiny, the Changes controlling all

.

Moral:

There are no joy without women.

Joy is vulnerable and passing, destiny waits from any corner.

To play with women is dangerous.

Boys that do it are blinded, maybe for love.

But live is a dream.

Thus, who does matter danger?

Questions:

What passes by the mind of the boy?
Did he read at the Changes «in the field catch three 品 pin3»?

Then the picture is about:

THE DANGEROUS GAME OF LOVE

Thanks for answering my call. I'm not sure I follow all of your imagery or agree with all the morals of your story. SOme of the phrases you used made me smile. Hanging on to pin 3 into 58 is the right thing for you to do. I'm enjoying seeing where that is taking you. Spreading the word of love makes for interesting times, not always how we express ourselves are under our control so you may well call this dangerous.
Mike

charly · Aug 14, 2009

my_key said:
... Thanks for answering my call. I'm not sure I follow all of your imagery or agree with all the morals of your story...

Thanks to you, Mike:

Of course. Maybe I was reading too much Aesop. I alway wondered why the LAKE is JOYOUS, but word for lake is 澤, maybe better translated as MARSH. This is the sort of people that live there:

Marsh Sandpiper 澤鷸比大小

From: http://isaac-chan.blogspot.com/2009_03_01_archive.html

Yours,

Charly

meng · Aug 15, 2009

Has anyone considered the melancholy aspect of 58? Is the young maiden, Dui, always joyful, or is she prone to mood swings?

meng · Aug 15, 2009

sparhawk said:

What I'm seeing here is a young girl, naive (blindfolded) of those (representing the world) around her, self absorbed in her own playful world, trying to interpret it through her senses/feelings. Stretching a bit, I see her mother and two older sisters, who gather around the youngest of them, perhaps reminiscing their own youth, who are affected through osmosis by her youth and vigor.

meng · Aug 15, 2009

She is the center, the others are her borders. Really is a beautiful image of a lake.

Thanks, Luis. Going to copy this image to my brain's hard drive, for 58.

maremaria · Aug 16, 2009

meng said:
Has anyone considered the melancholy aspect of 58? Is the young maiden, Dui, always joyful, or is she prone to mood swings?

Its interesting you mentioned that , because I fail to understand why Dui should be always Joyful.

There was a time that Dui appeared a lot in my reading. Well, joyful isn’t the first word comes in my mind regarding those readings. (lots of 28 and 47) I see in Dui, among other things a pool of emotions. Like children. When they are happy , they are happy, when they are sad they are sad. They express their emotions fully. Its their way to communicate . The opposite of 62.

In photos of lakes, we see the surrounding mirrored in its surface. I have a certain image in my mind where the colorful trees mirrored in lakes waters and become one. Its difficult to see what is the object and what its reflection.

Maybe, Yi-speaking, is not correct , but in my mind, I have associate Dui with a mirror. Here, in my country we have a saying. “tell me how are your friends to tell you who you are”. Our choices regarding friend reflect traits of our characters or of ourselves generally.

The melancholy of 58, for me, is that joy needs two lakes and that in real life is not always easy to find.

But Meng, say more about your though, if you want.

Maria

fkegan · Aug 16, 2009

Hex 58 as sharing and discussion without ulterior motives...

Hi Maria,

Hex 58 is two trigrams of Lake sitting together, reflecting, and refreshing each other. A lake is the archaic mirror; and only mirror until metal could be polished to reflect an image; and then even later when glass could be both made flat and silvered with mercury.

Hex 58 is four Yang lines with only the third and sixth places open Yin; so it is ongoing process without personal passion and without a focus upon the transition to Next. This is pretty well the description of a pleasant discussion amongst friends.

Clearly such a group without passionate ulterior motives could reflect any and all moods felt in the hearts (line 4) of anyone and shared with the group. Not just joy and melancholy but also the entire range and spectrum of emotions.

What would make it a hex 58 situation would be that there is a general sharing for the sole purpose of sharing and being together in spirit or mood as well as physical setting and conversation.

Frank

meng · Aug 16, 2009

maremaria said:
Its interesting you mentioned that , because I fail to understand why Dui should be always Joyful.

Most, if not all, versions/translations seem to say that joy and exchange are all 58 is about. Yet, like yourself, 58 has not always pointed to joy in my own readings. What there is is the opportunity to join with other lakes; as you say "joy needs two lakes". Dui's melancholy arises from the loss of one, or the need to move on from one, or just not having one. A girl sitting in her room, alone in her depth (47). This is as much she as when she effervesces among her peers.

nonni · Aug 16, 2009

Hello, everyone -
having recently joined, just thought i would like to say hello. As this thread had the most recent post, thought it most appropriate. Also, 'Tui' the lake is often used in my readings to refer to me (being a youngest daughter) (I like how it still applies even in just the relative sense!)
Hope to have something to share at some point, but in the meantime a big 'thank you' to Hilary for introducing me to her I Ching world.

58. Tui / The Joyous, Lake

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