44. Kou / Coming to Meet

rosada · Jul 10, 2008

44. Kou / Coming to Meet

_____
_____ above CH'IEN THE CREATIVE, HEAVEN
_____
_____
_____ below SUN THE GENTLE, WIND
__ __

This hexagram indicates a situation in which the principal of darkness, after having been eliminated, furtively and unexpectedly obtrudes again from within and below. Of its own accord, the female principle comes to meet the male. It is an unfavorable and dangerous situation, and we must understand and promptly prevent possible consequences.

The hexagram is linked with the fifth month [June - July], because at the summer solstice the principal of darkness gradually becomes ascendant again.
-Wilhelm

Sparhawk · Jul 10, 2008

em ching · Jul 10, 2008

Hello,

I am confused about 44 - I received it unchanging when asking about the potential of a friendship ( Please see the thread in shared readings 'What am I being told about a friendship'?)

On the one hand couldn't it be saying a meeting of minds/ special connection?
Or is it always negative, saying that the coming to meet will have negative consequences for both individual?

Thanks

em ching · Jul 10, 2008

Hello,

Well not to be lazy and wait for someone else to tell me what's what I found a thread in exploring divination on 44 and it all made a lot of sense re this person, especially the concluding post:

" If you want it too much, your judgments will be clouded. If you're not bothered, and it would be a good night, you may as well do it anyway, if you want. It's not as if you're going to marry her or anything. Get a grip. It's just not that serious. But it will be serious, if you want her too much. You'll make mistakes. She will overthrow your qi. Your empire will fall. But if you just want to play around, and you know how not to get sucked in, go ahead. But keep your hand on your wallet."

ie I shouldn't rely too much on him/ take the friendship so seriously (friendships aren't meant to be taken seriously after all eh!)
I think there is a connection there that'd be good to keep it going, but I won't allow myself to be overly influenced/ dependent on it.

:bows:

Sparhawk · Jul 10, 2008

em ching said:
Hello,

I am confused about 44 - I received it unchanging when asking about the potential of a friendship ( Please see the thread in shared readings 'What am I being told about a friendship'?)

On the one hand couldn't it be saying a meeting of minds/ special connection?
Or is it always negative, saying that the coming to meet will have negative consequences for both individual?

Thanks

The first thing you must get out of your mind is a Yi universe where there are 'positive' or 'negative' hexagrams. Yin and Yang are a polarity, not a dichotomy. The trick is to walk a middle path where you don't tip over to one side or the other and then risk overcompensating. A good fisherman, experienced in handling a narrow boat, can explain exactly what I mean...

As for your question/answer and the context, I'll risk to say that all depends on what your expectations are for that new friendship. Try not to fantasize about it...

Stepping back into character, I bid you good luck and no follow-ups to my interpretive comments...

Cheers,

Tohpol · Jul 10, 2008

Oh good grief! We've finally reached it: Madam 44

Okay put your helmets on and batten down the hatches...Things always get testy when 44 comes up and here she is in all her glory...Coming to meet us all...

:bows::bows:

Like Luis says, it isn't about negative or positive - but with 44 it often seems to be a tad negative at the outset but pure bliss for the soul when you get it.

rosada · Jul 10, 2008

I hit the wrong key and now the title has a typo in it. Hilary, if you can correct it I would be most grateful.

thanks, r

mudpie · Jul 11, 2008

em ching said:
Hello,

" If you want it too much, your judgments will be clouded. If you're not bothered, and it would be a good night, you may as well do it anyway, if you want. It's not as if you're going to marry her or anything. Get a grip. It's just not that serious. But it will be serious, if you want her too much. You'll make mistakes. She will overthrow your qi. Your empire will fall. But if you just want to play around, and you know how not to get sucked in, go ahead. But keep your hand on your wallet."

ie I shouldn't rely too much on him/ take the friendship so seriously (friendships aren't meant to be taken seriously after all eh!)
I think there is a connection there that'd be good to keep it going, but I won't allow myself to be overly influenced/ dependent on it.

:bows:

the words of yours i highlighted are Exactly the snare of 44.. a seductive temptation that appears harmless and mangeable

"i wont allow myself to be overly influenced by it"

This is the fly inching over towrds the web of a spider. It's dangerous and the web is insidious..... once you get near to it, you're snagged, I'd say, and Lady spider can spin you up tight, anticipating her sumptious dinner. The whole idea is that of an insidious temptation, and to not mess with this lady/man

it is not, IMO , a meeting of minds, an equal benefit, it is unbalanced and manipulative, powerful and unsavory, with a one-sided agnda. It is not the place you want to play around, beause you may not be able to resist getting sucked in. and you will be involved

jilt · Jul 11, 2008

this hexagram is not (only) about man eating women, it is all about desire that is meeting the appearingly right affection, someone, something to fullfull that desire. But, and thats the down side, the affection is divided, a tool to manipulate to gain something, be it sex, affection, a position, status, money. Manifestly are always two observable streams: something easily obtainable and accompanying luck, the other stream is a kind of melancholy and sense of death, a sense of separatedness, that feeling of "apres nous le deluge".
Indeed it is typically a seduction situation, also many commercials work with this process.
So you think you get all the attention, but in reality it is only for a limited period, untill the deal is done.
In extreme cases this hexagram is also about multiple personalities.
As listener said, it is about having more then one agenda.

bert.

em ching · Jul 11, 2008

Thanks for that!
Well all I can say is that I shan't seek it - if he comes back into my life then great but otherwise I'm prepared..

:bows:

Tohpol · Jul 11, 2008

em ching said:
Thanks for that!
Well all I can say is that I shan't seek it - if he comes back into my life then great but otherwise I'm prepared..

:bows:

Ready to jump at the slightest invitation... :mischief:

Topal

rosada · Jul 11, 2008

The hexagram of COMING TO MEET takes its meaning from the one dark line that develops at the bottom; therefore this first line is the constituting ruler of the hexagram. But the five yang lines have the duty of restraining the yin power. Among the five, the second and fifth have a strong and central character. The one stands near to the yin power in order to restrain it, the other holds the place of honor and comes down from above to restrain it. Therefore the nine in the fifth place and the nine in the second are the governing rulers of the hexagram.

THE SEQUENCE
through resoluteness one is certain to encounter something. Hence there follows the hexagram of COMING TO MEET. Coming to meet means encountering.

MISCELLANEOUS NOTES
COMING TO MEET means encountering.

Coming to meet means encountering. The lower trigram is Sun, wind, which drives along beneath Ch'ien, heaven, the upper trigram, and hence encounters all things. Furthermore, a yin line develpos below, so that the dark principle thus unexpectedly encounters the light. The movement is initiated by the dark principle, the feminine, which advances to meet the light principle, the masculine. This hexagram is the inverse of the preceding one.
-Wilhelm

dobro p · Jul 11, 2008

There's tons of useful stuff (plus the sort of aggravation that discussions about 44 tend to generate here) in this recent thread:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=5855

Another thread about 44? Broken record, probably. I'm resisting the temptation to join in again lol.

gene · Jul 12, 2008

Often when we get this hexagram we must question our motives or the motives of the other.

Gene

rosada · Jul 12, 2008

THE JUDGEMENT

COMING TO MEET. The maiden is powerful.
One should not marry such a maiden.

The rise of the inferior element pictured here in the image of a bold girl who lightly surrenders herself and thus seizes power. This would not be possible if the strong and light-giving element had not in turn come halfway. The inferior thing seems so harmless and inviting that a man delights in it; it looks so harmless and inviting that he imagines he may dally with it and come to no harm.

The inferior man rises only because the superior man does not regard him as dangerous and so lends him power. If he were resisted from the first, he could never gain influence.

The time of COMING TO MEET is important in still another way. Although as a general rule the weak should not come to meet the strong, there are times when this has great significance. When heaven and earth come to meet each other, all creatures prosper; when a prince and his official come to meet each other, the world is put in order. It is necessary for elements predestined to be joined and mutually dependent to come to meet one another halfway. But the coming together must be free of dishonest ulterior motives, otherwise harm will result.
-Wilhelm

heylise · Jul 13, 2008

Such a shame that such a beautiful hexagram gets such bad views.
"This is the fly inching over towards the web of a spider", that is about the worst thing which can happen. It is possible, but very seldom what is going on when you get 44.

It is also the hexagram of having a baby or of creativity! Gou is a picture of a woman giving birth. But for many centuries that has been a mystery for lots of men, so they saw it as dangerous. We still have to deal with that legacy.

I got it many times for a creative undertaking. It did succeed.

LiSe

rosada · Jul 13, 2008

THE IMAGE

Under heaven, wind:
The image of COMING TO MEET.
Thus does the prince act when disseminating his commands
And proclaiming them to the four quarters of heaven.

The situation here resembles that in hexagram 20, Kuan, CONTEMPLATION (View). In the latter the wind blows over the earth, here it blows under heaven; in both cases it goes everywhere, There the wind is on the earth and symbolizes the ruler taking notes of the conditions in his kingdom; here the wind blows from above and symbolizes the influence exercised by the ruler through his commands. Heaven is far from the things of earth, but it sets them in motion by means of the wind. The ruler is far from his people, but he sets them in motion by means of his commands and decrees.

The prince is symbolized by the upper trigram Ch'ien, heaven. His commands are symbolized by the lower trigram Sun, wind, whose attribute is penetration. The spreading of the four quarters of heaven is symbolized by the wind driving along under heaven.
-Wilhelm

rosada · Jul 13, 2008

Good point LiSe. I wonder if 44 is describing the creative process. The wood/wind blowing under heaven could be seeds scattering, some will land on fertile soil, some will not, some will land where they should grow, some will land where they should be pulled up like weeds. The air is filled with ideas, are they inspiring or intruding?

rosada · Jul 14, 2008

THE LINES

# Six at the beginning means:
It must be stopped with a brake of bronze.
Perseverance brings good fortune.
If one lets it take it's course, one experiences misfortune.
Even a lean pig has it in him to rage around.

If an inferior element has wormed its way in, it must be energetically checked at once. By consistently checking it, bad effects can be avoided. If it allowed to take its course, misfortune is bound to result; the insignificance of that which creeps in should not be a temptation to underrate it. A pig htat is still young and lean cannot rage around much, but after it has eaten its fill and become strong, its true nature comes out if it has not previously been curbed.

To check with a brake of bronze. This means that it is the way of the weak to be led.

The brake is below. K'un, in which this is the first line, means a wagon; Ch'ien is metal, by means of which the wagon is to be braked underneath. This braking brings good fortune, because it accords with the truth that a weak thing unable to guide itself must be led. If we give it free rein, misfortune befalls us. This shows the trend of the whole hexagram. The line is compared to a pig that is yet weak and lean but that will later tear about: this likewise refers to the yin nature of the line. The pig belongs to water, in particular to the yin aspect of water. It is worth noting that this line comes into account only as an object acted upon.
-Wilhelm

charly · Jul 14, 2008

rosada said:
... The wood/wind blowing under heaven could be seeds scattering...

Rosada:

This is what the Prince did at the Great Image.
Don't you believe that maybe the Great Image missed the point that H.44 is about the Princess?
Who matters what the Prince can do while the Princess is so strong?
What happened to the Superior Man?
May be the Great Image didn't missed the point at all: the Superior Man disappeared.

I have taken the licence of merging two pictures posted by Luis and Topal, see the results.
I believe that the Lady in the first picture was not strong enough for H.44.

More comments about it assap.

Yours,

Charly

getojack · Jul 14, 2008

44: Gòu

姤

CCDICT: [1] [v] pair off; mate; copulate [2] good; excellent [3] one of the eight diagrams in the Book of Changes

Dà Xiàng:
象曰‧天下有風‧姤‧后以施命誥四方‧
xiàng yūe: tiān xià yŏu fēng. gòu. hòu yĭ shī mìng gào sì fāng.

xiang4: The image
yue1: says,
tian1: heaven...
xia4: below it,
you3: there is
feng1: wind...

Gòu.

hou4: The queen,
yi3: accordingly,
shi1: bestows
ming4: destiny's
gao4: mandate
si4: (upon) the four
fang1: regions.

rosada · Jul 14, 2008

I love your new improved 44 picture Charly. LOL! Although, when we understand the deeper meaning of the hexagram it may not be considered fair...

I'm thinking about how the Wilhelm translation makes nearly every line of 44 seem to be a difficult experience and yet as LiSe has pointed out, we all know that if navigated properly each hexagram has a positive role to play. Looking ahead, we see that Coming to Meet leads to Gathering Together, so perhaps we are being tutored here on how to handle the upcoming major Gathering. Previously with Decrease, Increase and Breakthrough it seemed to me we were learning how to speak up and negotiate for what we wanted. 44 now seems to continue these lessons by pointing out how we can be influenced/manipulated by forces that are less straight forward. By learning how to be aware of these more subtle influences we are becoming equipt to handle life in the big city where, as we shall see in 45, we all have to work together but not everyone is our friend.

So what is 44 bringing to our attention? I think the gentle quality of the trigram Sun is significant. Like a soft breeze floating through the air, subtle influences are constantly prompting us to take action. I think of the biblical commandment, "Go forth and multiply" which seems to have been written into every species hard drive. Something within us prompts us to go forth and be creative, but how to discern when this advice is positive or seductive, that is the question.

As line 1 always describes the situation before we have fully entered into it, 44.1 seems to refer to that moment before coupling, before becoming involved. If this line comes up in a reading it would seem to advise slowing down, not Coming to Meet too quickly. Consider the consequences. "One minute on the lips, forever on the hips."

martin · Jul 14, 2008

heylise said:
Such a shame that such a beautiful hexagram gets such bad views.
"This is the fly inching over towards the web of a spider", that is about the worst thing which can happen. It is possible, but very seldom what is going on when you get 44.

It is also the hexagram of having a baby or of creativity! Gou is a picture of a woman giving birth. But for many centuries that has been a mystery for lots of men, so they saw it as dangerous. We still have to deal with that legacy.

I got it many times for a creative undertaking. It did succeed.

LiSe

Makes me wonder if hexagram 44 can perhaps work out differently depending on the gender of the questioner. Or in general, depending on the position of the questioner in the situation at hand. More yin or more yang (or more female or more male), regardless of gender.

The Yi itself seems to make a difference here, because it only addresses the yang lines (or the 'males') in the text of the hexagram. They are warned not to marry (or grasp) the yin line (the 'female').
No word to the yin line. So if you are that yin line (by gender or 'position' in the situation), is the message not for you then?

And why does the Yi not tell the 'females' in hexagram 24 that the 'male' is bold and powerful and that they should not marry/grasp him?!

charly · Jul 15, 2008

getojack said:
...
Dà Xiàng:
象曰‧天下有風‧姤‧后以施命誥四方‧
xiàng yūe: tiān xià yŏu fēng. gòu. hòu yĭ shī mìng gào sì fāng.
...

Getojack:

Remember W/B:

Under heaven, wind:
The image of COMING TO MEET.
Thus does the prince act when disseminating his commands
And proclaiming them to the four quarters of heaven.

Click to expand...

象 xiang4: image / shape / piece // elephant / ivory
曰yue1: says:

天tian1: heaven / sky
下xia4: below
有you3: there is
風feng1: wind...

姤Gòu = young woman + hou4 = Queen / Princess

后hou4: Ruler / Prince // Queen / Princess
以yi3: accordingly / then / thus
施shi1: to bestow / to grant // to cary out / to fulfill / compliance
命ming4: destiny / fate // charge / job / position
誥gao4: to grant / to bestow // to admonish / to proclaim // imperial mandate (1)
四si4: four
方fang1: regions / directions / cardinal points

WIND UNDER [THE] SKY [IS THE] PRINCESS:
THUS, [SHE] FULFILL [HER] DESTINY
[AND] PROCLAIMS [HER COMPLIANCE TO THE] FOUR DIRECTIONS.

Afer reading Harmen Mesker, I believe that GOU means ANCESTRAL LADY, the PRINCESS is not only «destiny compliant», but proclaims it, make it public(2).

It could be seen as a description of a HYEROGAMY, the sacred marriage between the KING and the GODDESS (the Ancestral Lady) represented by the Princess. An ancient agrarian rite oriented to guarantee fertility for the whole population.

Maybe this was the intention of the authors / compilers of the ZHOUYI and the DA XIANG, but later commentarists misunderstood the forgotten allusion, the hyerogamy became almost fornication and the Powerful Girl a courtesan, while the male ruler became almost GOD.

See the Strong Girl attached. She says: «I see your knowledge about me is limted...»

Yours,

Charly

______________________
(1) 告 to report, 誥= words + to report → to proclaim / to make public
(2) maybe GOU means «good to have public when copulating», in the ancient prints always there is a voyeur when the mate is working.
(3) Sheena, a gesture of her is a command for animals and plants, for all living beings, a version by J. Lemay, not recommendable trying to know more about it.

em ching · Jul 15, 2008

perhaps it means coming to meet with someone you have a rare thing in common with / special connection, but not in the loving sense? more in that that person/ you will further them/ eachother?
And I guess that you don't know the whole story - more to learn from a particular person but this could lead to creativity/ personal development.

martin · Jul 15, 2008

charly said:
She says: «I see your knowledge about me is limted...»

That sounds a lot like Jung's anima. If a man projects his anima, his 'inner woman', on a woman the attraction works through his unconscious. "Your knowledge about me is limited".
Because of that there is something mysterious and fascinating about her and she may seem like a goddess to him. And he may indeed feel like that little fly in the web of the spider. He is hooked, bewitched, intoxicated. No way out. But that is not necessarily a bad thing at all. Many men, in such a situation, are not looking for a way out!
Those old & wise Chinese guys did put a few EXIT signs in this hexagram, though, just in case ..

Tohpol · Jul 15, 2008

heylise said:
Such a shame that such a beautiful hexagram gets such bad views.
"This is the fly inching over towards the web of a spider", that is about the worst thing which can happen. It is possible, but very seldom what is going on when you get 44.

It is also the hexagram of having a baby or of creativity! Gou is a picture of a woman giving birth. But for many centuries that has been a mystery for lots of men, so they saw it as dangerous. We still have to deal with that legacy.

I got it many times for a creative undertaking. It did succeed.

LiSe

That may be true LiSe but the VAST majority of experiences in my own life and from what I can see, for others too when given over to the Yi for guidance and 44 comes up - suggest a highly negative situation. Not to say it can't inaugurate amazing learning experiences which end happily ever after so to speak but Ive yet to be convinced that this isn't a form of creative "destruction" that has some unpleasant negative connotations if ignored.

But maybe I'm just a jaded male hare

Topal

maremaria · Jul 15, 2008

Girl’s point of view ….

I received 44 some time ago when I asked about a inappropriate behavior of another person. There was a very unpleasant incident between him and me. Its was a bad experience That incident happened because either he believed he was powerful and he behaved like that or I was the powerful seductive woman that makes him behave like that. ( I believe it was the first). But the reason why happened stop bother me after a while because pondering on my reading (44.5 > 50) things I wasn’t aware before, become visible and I actually see a transformation happening inside me.
The old self could give him a good lesson for his behavior but this would harm me too because I would submit to his negative power. But that little voice in my mind and LiSe’s 50.5 “When all the circumstances and conditions - the womb - are perfect, then and there a strong new life can grow. Revere it, hold it sacred” didn’t let me do that. It make me see my other choice. To use that powerful energy for my own benefit and I did that.

Maybe, what makes the 44 woman powerful is her power to give birth to the heir. “do not grab the woman “ still confuse me (yup, after all those times I have get 44

) but maybe what its says here is that don’t get caught by with the woman because what is most important here is the child she bares. (metaphorical speaking).

Tohpol · Jul 15, 2008

Interesting Maria, thanks for that.

Topal

charly · Jul 15, 2008

martin said:
That sounds a lot like Jung's anima... "Your knowledge about me is limited".
... she may seem like a goddess to him. And he may indeed feel like that little fly in the web of the spider. He is hooked, bewitched, intoxicated. No way out... But that is not necessarily a bad thing at all. Many men, in such a situation, are not looking for a way out! ...

Martin:

Of course, if you are a guy you have your female anima, if you are a girl you have your male animus. When somebody wants to kill is double, he dies. When somebody wants to oppress his double, he results oppresed.

When misogynist versions of the YI advise us: warning! beware of girls! better quickly exit! some guys become hard to be convinced.

Take a look at 44.1, the initial outline of the problem:

繫 xi4 connect / to tie / tied
于 yu2 at / to
金 jin1 metal / money / gold / golden
柅 ni3 stop / spindle / rule
。
貞 zhen1 chaste / omen / perseverance
吉 ji2 lucky
。
有 you3 to have / there is / there are
攸 you1 distant / far
往 wang3 to go (in a direction)
。
見 jian4 to see / to meet
凶 xiong1 fierce / terrible / ominous / misfortune
。
羸 lei2 entangled / lean / scrawny
豕 shi3 hog / swine / pig
孚 fu2 trust / sincee / captive / to capture / to catch
蹢 zhi2 [???]
躅 zhu2 [???]

TIED to a GOLDEN RULE: the OMEN is LUCKY.
To adhere to a widely applied standard, a golden rule, promises luck.

HAVING FAR to GO MEETS MISFORTUNE.
Do not go too far, do not be excesively strict, not beyond reasonable limits.

The LEAN PIGS CATCH the «ZHI-ZHU»
Who are the Len-Pigs? Len Pigs are WE, the needy human beings, mainly the needy men. What ZHI-ZHU means? UNKNOWN.
The needy men (or needy human beings) catch the unknown!

As you say, the contact with the shadow, the contact with the inner unknown other genre double, the anima or the animus.

(to be continued)

Yours,

Charly

44. Kou / Coming to Meet

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One of those men your mother warned you about...

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One of those men your mother warned you about...

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