...life can be translucent

dobro p · Jun 1, 2008

My take on 44 is that it means 'contact it but don't unite with it'. Karcher talks about it meaning 'to couple with it' - exactly opposite meanings.

What's your take on it?

Here's a thread where needing to know this stuff is crucial:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?p=70572&posted=1#post70572

Tohpol · Jun 1, 2008

dobro said:
My take on 44 is that it means 'contact it but don't unite with it'. Karcher talks about it meaning 'to couple with it' - exactly opposite meanings.

What's your take on it?

Here's a thread where needing to know this stuff is crucial:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?p=70572&posted=1#post70572

Phew! 44 always a humdinger of a Hex.

Ok, from my own amateur experience I think Karcher is way too ephemeral on some of his line readings. Not to take anything away from his incredible knowledge and renderings I just think that by mixing very different traditions the meanings to sometimes lose their moorings so to speak. 44 is an example of this IMHO.

I can only speak from my own experience in this but I think line 5 speaks directly to protecting and holding onto something precious so that it can pay dividends later on. It seems to me to be something integral to one's spiritual process - a heavenly mandate if you will. The 44 quality seems to encourage the bringing forth or recognition of that quality that can't be squandered. The sexual aspect of 44 or the so called "negative" element seems to underline that potential for transgression or stepping over the mark and letting the "virgin" aspect or soul aspect be wasted. That seems to be the beauty of 44 - it allows you to see this and then act to protect it for whatever reason. This may apply to the querent or both people or the situation overall. Very much linked to the seasons and cycles where things come in their own time there's too much pressure right now - almost premature.

So, I see it as coupling with it, but only in the sense of joining with the the deeper intent behind the message. So, perhaps the meaning is actually not so different it's just a case of where one puts the focus. Legge says: "...let him restrain himself and keep his excellence concealed, and Heaven will set its seal to his virtue." I like that.

Line 6 seems to be a reiteration of withdrawing for a spiritual principle for both the instigator that has "come to meet" and the receiver so that in the end they both benefit.

So, I guess what you said in the thread was pretty on the ball in my view.

Topal

fkegan · Jun 1, 2008

Taoist view of hex 44

Gia-Fu Feng translated the formal judgment of hex 44 as:

CHANCE ENCOUNTER. THE GIRL IS TOUGH. DO NOT TAKE HER HOME.

[I quote the whole text in the shared readings section noted by Dobro]

In terms of hex 44, Gia-Fu was very concerned to note that the Taoist interpretation did not have a sexual element nor a moral judgment upon a strong woman who would meet a group of 5 yang dudes as equals and hold her own. Rather it refers to the situation of a chance encounter of a strong female and various males which does not fit into the traditional Chinese courtship and marriage scheme. Thus an interesting interaction, but don't try to take her home to meet your parents, they would not be impressed.

Hex 44.5 >>50 Chance Encounter becomes spiritual. Hex 44.6 >> 28 Chance Encounter becomes excessive inner weight for the available support. However, hex 44.5,6 >> 32 Chance Encounter becomes Endurance. The social routine continues, which may look like personal interaction from some external perspectives although for each person involved it is just putting one foot in front of another along their own personal path.

Frank

Trojina · Jun 1, 2008

My take on 44.5 is that its a whole lot less precious to you once you get it. Something falls into your lap and you don't want it anymore, its spoiled, past its time. Like an over ripe mushy fruit. I may pop over to Justas reading and say that, lol

Disclaimer...this is a purely personal view of 44.5 with no basis other than my own personal experience.

I agree with Dobro i feel theres a brief contact in 44 not something one should join with.

willowfox · Jun 2, 2008

Always makes me think that the woman in question is a prostitute, someone men should be avoiding for the likelihood of catching something nasty and/or because of the likelihood of being caught out by the wife(or the media).

dobro p · Jun 8, 2008

willowfox said:
Always makes me think that the woman in question is a prostitute, someone men should be avoiding for the likelihood of catching something nasty and/or because of the likelihood of being caught out by the wife(or the media).

I don't see her as a bad girl, but rather inappropriate. It's hard to get past our slightly less sexist assumptions these days in the West to see the ancient Yi symbol as a SYMBOLIC meaning. The girl in 44 is someone you contact, but you don't couple with; the girl in 31 is someone you contact, are influenced by, and couple with. The symbol is of girls and coupling or not coupling; the MEANING is of anything or anyone you contact that you join with or not.

meng · Jun 8, 2008

Are coupling and marrying the same thing?

meng · Jun 8, 2008

That's like comparing a powerful concubine to a wife, a big insult to the wife. Possibly to the concubine, too.

rosada · Jun 8, 2008

Interesting that the very first line of the I Ching, 1.1 leads us to this hexagram.

1.1 You can't see everything at once. Don't do anything, just watch...

44. and let your watching be as gentle as the wind. Resist the temptation to interfere directly in anyway.

fkegan · Jun 8, 2008

dobro said:
I don't see her as a bad girl, but rather inappropriate. It's hard to get past our slightly less sexist assumptions these days in the West to see the ancient Yi symbol as a SYMBOLIC meaning. The girl in 44 is someone you contact, but you don't couple with; the girl in 31 is someone you contact, are influenced by, and couple with. The symbol is of girls and coupling or not coupling; the MEANING is of anything or anyone you contact that you join with or not.

The Yi imagery isn't sexual in either 31 or 44, it refers to formal social customs. In 31 it is proper courtship with marriage or sex left until hex 32. Hex 44 is in the set of 10 beginning with sacrifice and blessing and has no connection to sex at all.

The woman encountered appears with a group of 5 males who she meets as equals. The symbolism is about the chance encounter outside of established tradition. The judgment taken either as do not marry her or do not take her home to meet the family highlights that this is an exceptional meeting which is outside established norms and should not be confused with proper custums.

The Wilhelm commentary on the Judgment even notes this symbolizes an exceptional interaction of important elements. In the structure of the decad, the 4th hexagram is the beginning state of the process which will culminate in hex 46 the wondrous process of crops emerging from the fertile earth. Hex 44 is what begins this process symbolized by the sacrifice of sowing seed and the blessing of all the elements of fertile earth meeting with seed and sunshine to germinate.

Overall hex 44 symbolizes the chance meeting of productive elements which offers new opportunities outside the established expectations and channels though such opportunities are not guaranteed and must be controlled to not get off into too much innovation and change...

Hexagram 1, first line symbolizes the beginning of the day, when the dragon (sun) has not yet risen over the horizon, and thus there isn't daylight with which to see clearly and act confidently. By expressing and exhausting this line the overall process of the day and daylight is changed towards hex 44 the chance encounter outside the normal order, things are met in the time when darkness rules which may offer opportunities but will soon dissolve in the dawn.

Frank

unsubscribed_cm · Jun 9, 2008

What about it being when the yin element has become more powerful than the yang?

It's when a attractive force is more powerful than a repelling force?
For a repelling force you at least can yield to it and be pushed away, both parties are happy. But in attraction there is no way to let go and go with it, and be free...
It's just an inward forever. So It says resist temptation, keep the "woman" (negative attractive force) in check.

I think it's a situation when someone is pulling you into something negative

Like pulling someone into falling on your extended sword.
Or getting a massage from someone who has a skin disease spread by contact.
Or seeking advice from a person who has a criminal philosophy.
Or marrying a woman who has 5 naughty kids between 3 divorced husbands. (to use marriage

)

I also think it has something to do with contact with the animus. The male within the female. The yang inside the yin.

Yeilding to the openness of this situation - or following temptation would only injure the person.

It says "the woman is powerful" because indeed she (or even he) has lightly accepted a position to which they are not worthy of. I think they emphasize "she" because it's emphasizing a powerful feminine force, that has outward influence (yang characteristic) by means of attracting everything to itself.

But in some situations this is harmless. Like it says, Unless the coming together is free of dishonest or ulterior motives harm will not result. Consulting the Yi may be this. We are asking advice of the superior but are also approaching it by our own accord and receptive to it.

I've gotten this hexagram when faced with a temptation to continue to do or live in a way that is not furthering me on becoming a better person.

I also think this hexagram shows the supreme power of the feminine principle, as it shows 5 yang lines that it takes to restrain a single yin line.

It almost is saying yang is like yin, in the ways of power. Common prolific and habitual (Yin circumstances). And in exceptional circumstances unusual odd and uncustomary (yang circumstances). The yin becomes more powerful than any single yang force in terms external consequences.

I've seen this happen and it's very bizzare.

Sometimes the earth strikes the sky with lightning (odd unusual yang). Most of the time the sky strikes the earth (Usual customary yin).

fkegan · Jun 9, 2008

What about it being when the yin element has become more powerful than the yang?

I am not sure if it is accurate to describe this situation as yin more powerful than yang. Clearly the one yin line is the highlight and the controlling influence, more than balancing the 5 yang lines, however, not by being more powerful but as you note more attractive.

That difference between powerful and attractive, like martial arts which do not depend upon power but rather balance and lever advantage, is that an open space at the right time or place can control or overcome any amount of power.

When the Yang lines are seen as full of firm structure and the Yin is seen as open spaces where the Yang fullness can diffuse into this background, balance between hard Yang power and attractive Yin open space stands out. One Yin line in the lowliest place brings the 5 Yang lines above it to a standstill as they turn around to encounter this new opportunity and question their prior direction, intention and process.

Frank

meng · Jun 9, 2008

Speaking only for myself, I am anything but attractive when under the influence of 44. I am not someone I'd care to marry or even be around.

Power is expressed as a passing foul and entitled mood , i.e. "I deserve better than this!" But sometimes it's something important, that needs to be acknowledged, and as often as not, there's a significant opportunity which appears, or burst of creativity, if I do acknowledge her.

I think it's good, when 44 appears, to ask "What does the bitch really need?" It's not always the same as what she petitions for. She may want the world, but only need a hug.

(edit) And in doing so, you (the creative/heaven you) take control of the situation, issuing your commands to her (the four winds). She becomes servant to the Creative. A concubine.

rosada · Jun 9, 2008

Wasn't there a lady, Val, who used to post here quite a bit who had strong feelings about 44? She seemed to think it was her personal hexagram or something. Anyway, I recall that she stopped posting after losing all self control one day and going off on Jesed. Struck me as being a living example of the dangers of connecting with 44.

meng · Jun 11, 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8eTOvMiee0&NR=1

Trojina · Jun 11, 2008

Somewhere we should be creating a musical tour through the hexagrams. Somehow i think there would be loads of songs for 44. 31 would be easy too

Trojina · Jun 11, 2008

Done it ! Music thread started in open space

meng · Jun 11, 2008

Fun idea!

meng · Jun 14, 2008

There are several good protections against temptation, but the surest is cowardice. ~ Mark Twain

hilary · Jun 14, 2008

trojan said:
My take on 44.5 is that its a whole lot less precious to you once you get it. Something falls into your lap and you don't want it anymore, its spoiled, past its time. Like an over ripe mushy fruit. I may pop over to Justas reading and say that, lol

Disclaimer...this is a purely personal view of 44.5 with no basis other than my own personal experience.

That's related to my experience with 44.5 (ie the average of a bunch of people's experience with it): it comes as a gift from heaven, but you have no clue how it might work out or even what it might turn out to be when it's unwrapped. Maybe just what you were hoping for and counting on - maybe not.

meng · Jun 15, 2008

Yeah, I agree with that idea, basically. But how can you ever know if you don't go there? How can you know what that bundle from heaven is if you don't "go for it"? (said the serpent to Adam) 'Course I'm being devil's advocate here, only because the current seems to move so quickly to the downside of this hexagram. But the serpent was right: there is no way to know without going out to meet it, taking that bite (21). I once received 21 on whether it would be advantageous to join a local fishing club. I wound up taking that bite; fished four tournaments, and then decided it wasn't for me. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, but no way to know without going to the meeting.

maremaria · Jun 15, 2008

While doing an informal research for a project about sirens/ mermaids, I found this article. Reading it , came to my mind Hex 44.

meng · Jun 15, 2008

Maybe the fruit of the tree of knowledge is bittersweet.

hilary · Jun 15, 2008

That's a wonderfully 44-ful article! I've thought of 44 as a siren before, but the mermaid lore really fits. Even the hexagram has a split tail...

maremaria · Jun 15, 2008

meng said:
But how can you ever know if you don't go there?.

You can ask others already been there.... (Kidding) its not the same.

musing....
Attend to such a meeting with something/someone powerful involves a risk. Playing safe is a way to avoid troubles but on the other hand one might lose something valuable, or something worth living. I don’t believe that this woman is necessary dangerous just powerful. In my mind , she is like the wind. She can blow in your sails and help you keep travelling to the destination your want or if you are not caution she can tear your sails or take you to unwanted places. You cooperate with her but you don’t give her the control of your boat.

maremaria · Jun 15, 2008

hilary said:
That's a wonderfully 44-ful article! I've thought of 44 as a siren before, but the mermaid lore really fits. Even the hexagram has a split tail...

I like the image of Odyssey passing the Sirens’ island tighten in the mast. He enjoys their songs but at the same time he has take all the necessary measurement not to get caught by them. A myth says that sirens not only sung but they share their wisdom to the sailors passing.

meng · Jun 16, 2008

maremaria said:
You can ask others already been there.... (Kidding) its not the same.

The others seemed as happy as pigs in mud.

maremaria said:
musing....
Attend to such a meeting with something/someone powerful involves a risk. Playing safe is a way to avoid troubles but on the other hand one might lose something valuable, or something worth living. I don’t believe that this woman is necessary dangerous just powerful. In my mind , she is like the wind. She can blow in your sails and help you keep travelling to the destination your want or if you are not caution she can tear your sails or take you to unwanted places. You cooperate with her but you don’t give her the control of your boat.

Yes, well said.

dobro p · Jun 16, 2008

I'd just like to point out a possibility about 44 that hasn't been explored much in this thread. I mean, maybe Karcher's right. You know, one mean of gou is 'to couple, to mate'. So maybe one meaning of 44 is the one night stand. You know - you sleep with her once, but she's not the sort of girl you want to take on full time. (Women treat men that way too, so don't get all PC on me lol.) If that's a possible meaning, then it's the intense variation of 44. I think most times it means 'contact it and interact with it but don't reach for it'. But maybe the intense variation is 'one night stand'. I'm not talking about sexual relations of course, I'm using it as a symbol. So if, for example, the issue was whether to take a job offer and you got 44, the cautious reading would be: "Go for the interview, but don't actually take the job." But the intense reading would be: "Accept the job; but you'll bail out a month afterward."

Trojina · Jun 16, 2008

Also not much mentioned in this thread is the boorishness/pushiness/disrespect of boundaries the 44 encounter can bring. In my experience at least its not always to do with the glamour of seduction, far from it. More often its someone who wants to impose their will but with a bit of a sweetener, like a bait, so that for a moment one is tempted to join with them but a moment is about all one can afford when they're out to steamroller you lol. 44 can also be about force and domination, the overriding of ones will, a kind of rape mentality.

And true to the nature of 44 we have got sucked in by over sexualising its message. 44 is about all sorts of things in life that are pushy, intrusive, demanding of our energy, which will ultimately drain us if we give it too much space in our life. So we have to have a quick feel and let go thats all - theres nothing to say that feel won't be exquisite though (no wink icon available in edit mode but 'wink'.)

Trojina · Jun 16, 2008

dobro said:
So if, for example, the issue was whether to take a job offer and you got 44, the cautious reading would be: "Go for the interview, but don't actually take the job." But the intense reading would be: "Accept the job; but you'll bail out a month afterward."

Hmmm I'd think the job will look sweet, infact they'll make it look sweet while plotting to make you do unpaid overtime, with no teabreaks and raid you for every ounce of your energy they can. I'd say go for the interview but read the small print and give them a grilling about their expectations :mischief:

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