Memorizing the I Ching: 35. Chin / Progress

rosada · Dec 9, 2007

35. Chin / Progress
-----
-- -- above LI THE CLINGING
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-- --
-- -- below K'UN THE RECEPTIVE EARTH
-- --

The hexagram represents the sun rising over the earth. It is therefore the symbol of rapid, easy progress, which at the same time means ever widening expansion and clarity.

Sparhawk · Dec 10, 2007

dobro p · Dec 10, 2007

Ah, now we're making progress! About time.

rosada · Dec 10, 2007

Yeah, I think we got stuck in the hedge there at the end of 34.6

rosada · Dec 10, 2007

THE JUDGEMENT
PROGRESS. The powerful prince
Is honored with horses in large numbers.
In a single day he is granted audience three times.

As an example of progress, this pictures a time when a powerful feudal lord rallies the other lords around the sovereign and pledges fealty and peace. The sovereign rewards him richly and invites him to closer intimacy.

A two fold idea is set forth here. The actual effect of the progress emanates from a man who is in a dependant position and whom the others regard as their equal and are therefore willing to follow.

This leader has enough clarity of vision not to abuse his great influence but to use it rather for the benefit of his ruler. His ruler in turn is free of jealousy, showers presents on the great man, and invites him continually to his court. An enlightened ruler and an obedient servant - this is the condition on which great progress depends.

dobro p · Dec 10, 2007

Sure, I'm okay with all that.

But what about the horses? Are they gifts from the sovereign to the man of ability in recognition of his contribution, or are they an building up and enhancement of the herd by the man of ability himself? Is he being honored with a gift of horses? Or is he building up the herd through hard work?

rosada · Dec 11, 2007

Hi Dobro,
You posted your questions before I had completed the quote from Wilhelm.
My take on this is that the ruler bestows the horses on the man as a gift, but then the man builds up the herd through hard work.

Today my husband and I had lunch at the senior center. At our table was a marvelous woman and her devoted daughter. The mother had raised her daughter and 15 foster children. Now in her eighties she lives with her daughter, who raises throughbred horses! When the woman was raising the children the daughter was of course the role model for the other kids - she was the powerful feudal lord rallying the other lords around the mother, the sovereign. When her husband died, the mother invited the daughter to live with her and set her up in business raising horses.

dobro p · Dec 11, 2007

Okay, so if the guy in 35 receives a gift of horses from the ruler and then builds up the herd through hard work, then we're also talking about the parable of the talents in the gospels - the story of the three servants who were given something valuable, and two of them invested what they'd been given and made it into something bigger and more valuable, so they were rewarded *again* by the lord. But the third guy didn't put the gift to work - he let it be idle - and in the end he lost even what he'd been given.

rosada · Dec 11, 2007

Hmm..I think that's a bit of a stretch, Dobro.
In the parable of the talents the gift was an investment where as in 35.Progress the gift is a reward.
The parable emphasizes that not using one's gifts will lead to loss, whereas 35.Progress is about one's efforts being recognized - nothing about loss. Is it that we're seeing a basic differance in philosopy here? Is it the Bible sees the world in terms of right and wrong, where as the I Ching just says right or wrong, all efforts will ultimately manefest?

dobro p · Dec 11, 2007

From where I'm looking, the Bible story and 35 are talking about exactly the same thing, but the Yi is describing only the upside of the situation - the reward that comes of trusted competence and achievement. Plus which, the Yi describes the work that then subsequently is put into the gift - so the order of the Bible story is:

1 gift

2 gift is enhanced through work, or left idle

3 if gift is enhanced, another and bigger gift is bestowed; if gift is left idle, it is lost

Whereas the order of the Yi version is:

1 valuable work is done

2 gift is bestowed as reward

3 more work is put into the gift

The only real difference I see is that 35 images a success story, whereas the parable images two outcomes, one a success story and one a failure.

rosada · Dec 11, 2007

I dunno. I still think two very different principles are being presented here. The Bible is saying that talents have been given to us to use and if we don't use them we will lose them. In 35.Progress the man is being rewarded because he gathered his friends about him and rather than inciting them to rebell against the sovereign, he encourage them to follow the sovereign. What he chooses to do with his reward is not mentioned.
Actually, I think hex.4 is more analigous to the talents parable. The Fool is given the help he seeks, but if he does not use it and keeps asking for more the I Ching cuts him off.

dobro p · Dec 11, 2007

Top-down benefits in connection with a job well done. That's what I see in both cases, but maybe I'm more of a generalist than you.

Okay, let's play with the trigrams for a minute. What do you see in li above k'un? One thing I see is the sun smiling down on the earth, and this symbolizes both the favor and the gift in the text.

rosada · Dec 11, 2007

But it's NOT top-down benefits! That's why the image says "thus the superior man HIMSELF brightens his bright virtue"!
Another example about the meaning of Progress. We went off to the Senior Center for lunch again today. As we've only recently started going to these gatherings I was looking for a way to make friends. I wrote a joke out on a card and slipped it to the person sitting next to me. He smiled and made to give it back but I indicated he should pass it on. So the card was passed on and it made the rounds at the various tables. Then the group leader stood up and asked if there were any announcements. There usually never are and she was hoping someone would have something to say. By now my joke had reached her and she read it aloud to the group and everyone laughed. She asked me to come up and be introduced and I was given the first serving of dessert.

I see all of this as an example of what 35.Progress is trying to teach us, which is, that the way to make Rapid Easy Progress is to start by strengthen ties with one's equals, rather than going streight to the man in charge, but be doing something that is helpful to the man in charge. I think the idea is that in this way your good intention will on it's own find it's way -Easy Progress!
In my case I was regarded as an equal by my seat mates and they were willing to follow my suggestion to pass the joke around. The group leader didn't see my passing a note as usurping her position, in fact, she needed a joke, and thus my idea found it's path and I was granted an audience, honored with a piece of cake, and am now well on the way to making new friends!

Well, I think you know I am not arguing with you here Dobro. I am enjoying discussing the fine points and seeing things I would not have noticed if you hadn't focused our attention here. On to the trigrams...

rosada · Dec 11, 2007

THE IMAGE
The image of PROGRESS.
Thus the superior man himself
Brightens his bright virtue.

The light of the sun as it rises over the earth is by nature clear.
The higher the sun rises, the more it emerges from the dark mists, spreading the pristine purity of its rays over an ever widening area. The real nature of man is likewise originally good, but it becomes clouded by contact with earthly things and therefor needs purification before it can shine forth in its native clarity.

The Image is directly explained through the relative positions of the two trigrams. Li, light, stands above K'un, the earth. Here we have a model for a philosophy of life: what is innately light rises over that which darkens. It can do this of its own power because it is not obstructed by earth, which is devoted and compliant in its nature.
-Wilhelm

dobro p · Dec 11, 2007

rosada said:
But it's NOT top-down benefits!

Well, if it's not top-down benefits, why did you say earlier: "My take on this is that the ruler bestows the horses on the man as a gift..." That's what I meant by 'top-down benefits' - the gift of the horses from the ruler to the guy.

rosada · Dec 11, 2007

"All good people and things progress unless close to termination, so this is not a very specific name. 'Great development and increase(lower trigram K'un) of brilliant realization (upper trigram Sun)' better discribes this Hexagram.
"The lower trigram symbolizes the materialistic and the desires wanting to be filled up. This indicates some preliminary difficulties, but not persisting for long.
"The lower trigram is 'invoking' and the upper is 'evoking.' Therefore the "Superior' is successful in evoking the good support and cooperation of the 'inferior.' The sole adverse phase of the Hexagram is if the upper becomes enchanted with the drive of the lower to be 'filled up' and the brilliance of the upper abandons itself = but this would be only temporary and the 'advance and increase' in growth and development is assured ultimately. 'Great increase' describes the hexagram better than progress - increase in realization and brilliant manifestation.
"Let the superior not be hard on the strong desires or rebelliousness of the lower; rather, let the intelligence of the upper combine with the support of the lower."

- Louis T. Culling, The Pristine I Ching

rosada · Dec 11, 2007

We crossed posts.
You are seeing the horses, the gift, as the key to the lord's Progress. I am seeing the gift as a proof of his progress, not the cause of it. I'm seeing the lord progresses because he first bonded with his fellow lords, shared his ideas with them and his ideas found their way to the top without his having to do much to promote them. I see this theme developed through out the I Ching:
Hex. 1 says be clear about your intention.
Hex. 2 Follow the lead that comes to you.
Hex. 3
Difficulty at the Beginning works supreme success.
Why? Why would difficulties at the beginning be so positive? Because they prevent a person from charging ahead and making some disasterous blunder. One just needs to keep the goal in mind and stay focused but
Nothing should be undertaken.
Why? Because the person himself doesn't know what to do. It's time to call on those alternate selves, hire an expert, appoint a helper, bond with an equal who does know what to do or who can at least help.
What if the person does not follow the advice of the appointed helpers?
Hex. 4 says "At first oracle I inform him. If he asks two or three times, it is improtunity. If he importunes, I give him no information." and "The superior man fosters his character by the thoroughness in all that he does." So here we have the idea that one ought do something with the information - gifts - one receives as we also see in the parable of the talents.

By the time we get up to 35 we've had many lessons on having clear goals and gathering support until finally at Progress we are being told what success should look like. So we're not at the start of a project
where being given a gift is unearned seed money, we are well along in our journey and being given a gift means finally our work is meeting with some recognition.

charly · Dec 11, 2007

rosada said:
... 35.Progress is about one's efforts being recognized - nothing about loss...

Rosada:

I believe like you that h.35 is about a gift, but maybe not for the noble but for the horses.
To have a permissive Prince is a gift for them.

The horses are symbols of freedom, thus progress, advance without barriers, like the sun progress (1).

W/B PROGRESS:
晉jin4 / to advance, to increase, to flourish (2)/

W/B The powerful prince:
康kang1 / healthy, peaceful, abundant /
侯hou2 / prince, marquis [not a duke] (3)/

W/B ???:
用yong4 / to use, to apply /

W/B Is honored with horses in large numbers:
錫xi1 / to bestow, to confere /
馬ma3 / horse /
蕃fan2 / flourishing, to reproduce /
庶shu4 / ordinary, common people, numerous, born of a concubine /

W/B In a single day he is granted audience three times:
晝zhou4 / daytime /
日ri4 / day, sun /
三san1 / three /
接jie1 / to receive, to join /

The chinese text seems to speaks about a noble (not from the highest grades), healthy, peaceful and generous that gave the horses freedom for flourishing / reproducing like bastards.

Three times in a day was received the Prince? Maybe the three states of the sun in a day, from rising to setting.

Yours,

Charly
___________________________
(1) The sun as a charriot with horses.
(2) The character has two arrow advancing over the sun.
(3) Also the name of an historic prince, see Marshall.

rosada · Dec 12, 2007

So how would you translate this Charly?
"The Prince gives the horses freedom"?

Trojina · Dec 12, 2007

Its a gift to the horses ?

The horses are the gift - the means to make progress. 35 is a good time to get noticed, get approval and move forward without obstruction - but its not a time to sit around waiting for a gift but to make best use of the time for getting ahead. Its a time when those who have power actually notice and reward you - unlike 36. I think its about your position in relation to prevailing trends that govern the situation, could be a person, could be just the nature of the times, prevailing cultural attitudes and so on. IOW its a time when your values are accepted and supported by anyone/thing that has power/influence in the way the situation progresses. In 36 your values are not appreciated and you must hide them for the powers that be don't understand or value you - here its the opposite., things are going your way so make the most of it it won't last.

dobro p · Dec 12, 2007

trojan said:
Its a gift to the horses ? The horses are the gift - the means to make progress. 35 is a good time to get noticed, get approval and move forward without obstruction - but its not a time to sit around waiting for a gift but to make best use of the time for getting ahead. Its a time when those who have power actually notice and reward you - unlike 36.

Yeah, that's my take on it too. I think the guy receives the horses, and the horses augment his herd. That seems to be the obvious meaning - the guy is honored (by contrast to 36 where you have to keep your head down in order to avoid injury - Hex 35 and Hex 36 seem to image the polarity of 'good ruler, bad ruler'.)

But I play with the idea that 'augmenting herd' idea might mean something like 'the guy improves or enhances the herd'. Like a horse breeder.

charly · Dec 13, 2007

rosada said:
So how would you translate this Charly?
"The Prince gives the horses freedom"?

Hi, Rosada:

«Freedom to the horses» is of course an interpretation, my tentative translation of the text is:

晉jin4 : PROGRESSING [like the Sun, like arrows over the sun]

康kang1 侯hou2: the Peaceful Prince (1)
用yong4: uses (2)
錫xi1: to allow (3)
馬ma3: [his] horses
蕃fan2: flourishing [or to reproduce (4)]
庶shu4: [like] bastards [born of a concubine or like ordinary people / horses(5)]

晝zhou4 日ri4: along the day [as long as the Sun lasts (6)]
三san1接jie1: three times [three receptions(7)]

(1) Robust but Tranquil Prince
(2) is a conduct
(3) to grant freedom
(4) flourishing = having sex
(5) maybe the horses were precious or delicate (maybe gifts of the Royal Mother) but the Prince treat them like ordinary horses, no matter their economical value.
(6) the Sun is always present, in 晉[two arrows over the Sun in search of a target], in the context, during the day and in the image of the horse related to the charriot of the Sun. Also in the upper trigram.
(7) of course there were mares, not only colts.

Only one among so much another stories.
To increase the received gifts a Peaceful-Prince is needed.

Yours,

Charly

rosada · Dec 13, 2007

Thank you Charly!
I'm also thinking now that special attention should be placed on the Sun rising above the Earth as indicating Progress being furthered simply by things coming out in the open. We went to the Senior Center again where my passing around a joke had led to my meeting people. Well yesterday another lady brought photographs of her art work and passed them about, thus giving us more reason to connect. Seemed to fit in with the idea that Progress happens when energy feels free to flow and make connections openly - like horses allowed to breed as they please.

By the way, here's the joke:

There was a theologen named Fiddle,
Who refused to take his degree.
He said, "It's bad enough being 'Fiddle.'
"I wont be Fiddle D.D."

rosada · Dec 14, 2007

I thought 35 was going to be about all being in accord and moving forward together. Now I think it's about everybody coming out in the open with their various points of view and it not being important if we agree. What's Progress is that we all feel comfortable speaking our truths.

Tohpol · Dec 14, 2007

Thought I'd chime in briefly about my experiences with 35.

Certainly, it's about progress, but the quality of that progress is important. I've mostly had this hex when IC was basically giving me a slap round the chops regarding my ideas of progress. Not to "Abuse his great influence" i.e. his talents and abilities for selfish ends. So the fact that this is a progress from purification hex really fits in my experience.

I once laboured on some work for months and months and produced a lot of research connected to this work and in the end it went down the tubes due to political wrangling and general problems of an unforseen nature. A lot of it was due to my own hubris too in taking on too much. I asked whether I could still use some of this research and share it. The result was 35 but not at all auspicious for my ego.

Waaay, way down the line the work could be utilized but probably not in it's present form and not in the way I imagined.

35 can be really tough and not at all "positive." Purification never is for the ego I guess.

Lots of hard work involved but the application and direction of that potential progress seems to be very much symbolised in this hex. The Clinging is almost the material aspect the potter's wheel if you will, and the receptive is the water and energy that gives life to the action. But if the fuel running both is just your wish have it all, then the success may not last the pot will go flop over because your source of fuel powering the potter's wheel is not the electricity of the universe but your skinny legs peddling the system. And if in turn, your legs alone are not enough to drive the wheel due to a lack of self-work (energy) the progress will be a bit like an aspect of 30 which can burn brightly but not for long.

I like the idea of the Trigrams as the receptivity of 2: the oven receiving the object of creativity into it's womb and the fire of 30 "fertilizing" it into tangible, material existence - the finished product, whether that be job, relationship, product, craft etc., - a birth. It does tend to have a material slant to it in my own experience. And though all the hexes can be seen as alchemical, this one is pretty strong, hence the reason for the difficult and arduous processes involved in bringing something to fruition.

Topal

Trojina · Dec 14, 2007

Topal re the "progress from purification" you mention in your first paragraph - I'm puzzled as to where you think the purification comes from ? I've just not come accross the idea of purification in connection with 35 before ?

Tohpol · Dec 14, 2007

trojan said:
Topal re the "progress from purification" you mention in your first paragraph - I'm puzzled as to where you think the purification comes from ? I've just not come accross the idea of purification in connection with 35 before ?

Well, I suppose you could focus on many Hexes that are explictly about this process and 35 is more implicit. The idea of material progress seems to be quite strong in this hex - at least in my experience... Earthly things can aid us in letting the sun shine - becoming "brighter" or, if we become too attached to material acquisitions, the top job, the red shiny car etc. they can distort the creativity and we merge with the "dark mists." Wilhelm:

THE IMAGE

The sun rises over the earth:
The image of PROGRESS.
Thus the superior man himself
Brightens his bright virtue.

The light of the sun rises over the earth is by nature clear. The higher the sun
rises, the more it emerges from the dark mists, spreading the pristine purity
of its rays over an ever widening area. The real nature of man is likewise
originally good, but it becomes clouded by contact with earthly things and
therefore needs purification before it can shine forth in its native clarity.

Topal

Trojina · Dec 14, 2007

Hmm i see, thanks for explaining. Purification had never crossed my mind for any hexagram, or maybe its just the word doesn't resonate. Thinking over what you said about attachment to earthly things distorting creativity I think another such thing can be praise and acceptance. I remember once reading a quote, wish i could remember who but it said something like acceptance is creative death to an artist because they cannot then help but start to perform to the demands of their audience - unless they are very strict with themselves that is. The point was i think if noone accepts, praises or notices your work then its easier to keep your artistic integrity intact than if you receive alot of recognition. I think with 35 its important to remember you are not getting all these goodies, praise, rewards, favour and so on wholly because you are so great but because its your season, your turn, like the wheel of fortune, and it will surely turn to a time (one day maybe another lifetime) where everyone thinks you are a nutcase and you had better pretend to be one if you want to have the freedom to hold to your true values (as in 36)

hilary · Dec 15, 2007

Nuclear hexagrams, anyone?

The hidden possibility in 36 is 40, Release: freedom to see your true path and walk it - exactly what Trojan's talking about, surely. The hidden possibility in 35 is 39, Difficulties. Great gifts come with a responsibility to make something of them; that means making hay all the time the sun shines, and then burning the midnight oil to plan out the next day's horse-breeding.

dobro p · Dec 15, 2007

Ah. So you think he's a horse breeder too, and not just the honored recipient of a few head of royal equinity.

Memorizing the I Ching: 35. Chin / Progress

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One of those men your mother warned you about...

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