Memorizing the I Ching: 33. Tui / Retreat

rosada · Sep 26, 2007

-----
----- above CH'IEN THE CREATIVE, HEAVEN
-----
-----
-- -- below KEN, KEEPING STILL, MOUNTAIN
-- --

The power of the dark is ascending. The light retreats to security, so that the dark cannot encroach upon it. This retreat is a matter not of man's will but of natural law. Therefore in this case withdrawal is proper; it is the correct way to behave in order not to exhaust one's forces.
In the calendar this hexagram is linked with the sixth month (July-August), in which the forces of winter are already showing their influence.

The constituting rulers of the hexagram are the two yin lines in the first and second place. They show the dark principle pressing forward, with the light principle in retreat. The ruler of the action is the strong, central line in the fifth place, which finds correspondence in the weak, central line in the second place. This is the line referred to in the commentary of the Decision: "The firm is in the appropriate place and finds correspondence. This means that one is in accord with the time."
The lower trigram is Ken, Keeping still, hence the three lower lines show themselves hampered in retreating. The upper trigram is Ch'ien, strong movement, hence the retreat of these three lines is free and unhampered.

The Sequence
Things cannot abide forever in their place; hence there follows the hexagram of RETREAT, Retreat means withdrawing.

Miscellaneous Notes
RETREAT means withdrawing.

Sparhawk · Sep 26, 2007

dobro p · Sep 26, 2007

Excuse me, but I feel the need to withdraw from this thread.

getojack · Sep 26, 2007

遯
Dun4

[1] [v] deceive [2] [v] escape; flee; run off

rosada · Sep 26, 2007

Okay, now explain this picture. Have they Retreated from the edge of a cliff? Or have we Retreated and are now watching from behind a tree?

getojack · Sep 26, 2007

That tree looks like it's about to crash down on their little tea party.

martin · Sep 26, 2007

I think both, Rosada, they are in retreat and a hidden camera (also in retreat) is watching them

Nice picture.

gene · Sep 27, 2007

Things flow because they are unified. It is all one.

Gene

gene · Sep 27, 2007

This hexagram teaches us the proper way to deal with those who would cling to us for their own sake to feed off our energy. We are not to dislike them. We are not to be angry with them. We simply retreat into inaccessible heights, (our deeper thoughts) and a retreat from them mentally will leave them to find their own way, to be responsible for themselves. We have better luck defending ourselves from unsavories by ignoring them than by rudeness. Rudeness shows there is still an attachment, and it gives those who would feed off our energies an energy to attach to.

Gene

dobro p · Sep 27, 2007

gene said:
This hexagram teaches us the proper way to deal with those who would cling to us for their own sake to feed off our energy. We are not to dislike them. We are not to be angry with them. We simply retreat into inaccessible heights, (our deeper thoughts) and a retreat from them mentally will leave them to find their own way, to be responsible for themselves. We have better luck defending ourselves from unsavories by ignoring them than by rudeness. Rudeness shows there is still an attachment, and it gives those who would feed off our energies an energy to attach to.

Gene

I think you've identified one application of withdrawing, one form that withdrawing takes, when you withdraw from people who prey on you. But the 33 can also apply to withdrawing from people who are negative for you in other ways. Sometimes people want your company because it's more people at the party, but you need to withdraw from that in order to maintain your own balance. Sometimes you withdraw because you've been 'flowing' for a long time, and it's time for the water to move the other way. Sometimes the people involved are just fine, but we should withdraw so that something can happen that wouldn't happen if we were to stick around (nobody's a bad person, it's just a matter of chemistry). Sometimes you should withdraw from a situation because *you* are there for the wrong reasons. (In this category I'd put the presence of the Canadian forces in Afghanistan; I think it's a mistaken policy to have them there, and I think they should be withdrawn.) There are a myriad other situations I can think of, I'm just starting to come up with them. Withdrawing can apply to *any* situation where you're to pull out.

gene · Sep 27, 2007

This is true. I was just using one example.

Gene

maremaria · Sep 27, 2007

From my view:
When I was taking drawing lessons , the teacher told me once in a while I should step back and see my work from a distance. When you are very closely to the painting you can’t see the mistakes . Its more clear from a distance where you can compare the object you are drawing and the result in the paper ,check it and make the corrections. In this example “retreat” is necessary. Step back , see the whole picture and then correct it or throw it away.

Somewhere I read (I’m not sure how accurate or valid is that information) that there
is a polar opposite to that flight/fight response.

Here is the article. I think has some relevance with the retreat concept. Sorry I haven’t the link

All animals have a built in survival instinct that has helped ensure that the fittest survive to propagate the species. The slowest wildebeest in the herd is the one that becomes supper for the lions! This instinct is alive and well, and functioning in each and everyone of us.. and our companies. In order to mobilise our bodies to meet the perceived threat, we prepare for either flight or fight (which we choose depends on our natures and our circumstances). Our body begins to close down all extraneous functions, blood is pumped to the main muscles and away from the skin (we go pale) sugar is metabolised by the adrenalin, pupils dilate, digestion stops, skin sweats, breathing becomes shallow … In this state we are only fit for survival. We can't listen, we can't be creative we are a victim of this mechanism.

You might wonder what this has to do with the modern board room, but if you are either very honest, or very observant you will know that it is more than just a metaphorical jungle in there! In this state we will do (or say) whatever it takes to get out of the situation. You can not reason with people in this state, you can not build true consensus, you won't hear the truth. You only have access to about 10% of people's abilities. In other words, you can't proceed with change (or even with business as normal) unless the Flight/Fight mechanism is disarmed. The bad news is that because of the ancient herd mentality if one animal 'scents a lion' than all the other animals that don't want to be lion food also prepare for flight (if you stop to ask why we are running you might get eaten!)

It is not only possible but imperative to pull people back from the edge if you want to be part of a high performing team with access to all those expensive brains and capabilities. The good news is that there is a polar opposite to the Flight / Fight response called the Relaxation Response. In this state people are super creative and very receptive to change and innovation; creativity is high. This is where people make their personal breakthroughs and 'Ah-ha's!' The great news is that the brain rewards you for this important survival behaviour (creativity and learning) by flooding the brain with endorphins (brain chemicals that create a natural high)* So work becomes more productive and more fun as you escape that jungle!

Learning to recognise when you are 'running away' (even if your legs are still) or 'fighting' (even if you are smiling) is an important step in understanding ourselves and our processes. Once we realise that that in this state we litterally can't hear what is being said, have no real choices and can help no one, we are at the begining of the road to re-engaging with our fellow human beings, who may well be just as 'triggered' as us. In fact this is very likely as when one gazelle on the plain spots a lion, they all start running; the technical name forthose who don't is 'Cat Food'.

Maria

rosada · Sep 27, 2007

Fascinating, Maria! Not clear though how one induces the Relaxation Responce? Maybe that's what will see here or in 34.
Sequence wise, it would make sence that after 33.Retreat there would be a way to come back and re-engage with creativity high and "the brain flooded with endorphins": 34. The Taming Power of the Great.

frank_r · Sep 27, 2007

Hexagram 33 has a connection with the small intestines http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=4136&page=20 (post 71)

The small intestines have a connection with the heart, they belong both to the element of fire(imperial fire). When there is too much fire in the heart, for instance people who are talking much and fast, then this too much of fire has a escape possiblity through the small intestines.When there is a sudden shock(to much fire at once) this can give diarrhoea. The small intestine keep the qi down in the belly, doing this people can stay calm and controlled. People can retreat from a situation, it gives the possibility to control the emotions of the heart so they can retreat from an over emotional respons.

getojack · Sep 27, 2007

It seems Wilhelm must have been using a different version of the Yi or something, because he calls hexagram 33 "Tui/Retreat" which probably comes from the character 退 tui4 meaning "retreat; to decline; to move back; to withdraw." So why did Wilhelm use the character 退 tui4 for the name of hexagram 33, when it isn't even in the hexagram text of the Zhouyi or in the Da Xiang for hex33??? 遯 dun4 is used consistently there, as far as I can tell.

charly · Sep 28, 2007

getojack said:
It seems Wilhelm must have been using a different version of the Yi or something, because he calls hexagram 33 "Tui/Retreat" which probably comes from the character 退 tui4 meaning "retreat; to decline; to move back; to withdraw." So why did Wilhelm use the character 退 tui4 for the name of hexagram 33, when it isn't even in the hexagram text of the Zhouyi or in the Da Xiang for hex33??? 遯 dun4 is used consistently there, as far as I can tell.

Getojack:

In my Wilhelm/Malke version (p.143) H.33 is headed by 遯 which meanings, according with Lin Yutang are:

遯
(1) To flee, escape, hide away, (var. of 遁 see 90.83).
(2) (AC) deceive.
from: http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Lindict/

Not exactly an ordered retreat.

Some moderns like Waley, K.Huang, Rutt, etc. thinks that the path radical was added later and that at the firsth was 豚 tun from which Lin Yutang says:

A suckling pig: 豚兒，豚犬 (court.) formerly, reference to one's own children;
豚魚 (lit.) “suckling pigs and fish,” (AC) 信及豚魚 one's sincerity can move even the lowest creatures.

As you can see modern meanings are often taylored for I Ching reading and interpretation.

Maybe we must follow both ways, or perhaps three:

1) Retreat / hiding
2) Piglet / pig
3) Piglet's retreat

For ancient chineses the pig was not among the lowest creatures, was revered and worshiped like a god. He becomes a symbol of:

1) fertility, virility, sexuality, desire
2) motherhood, maternal care
3) male territoriality, war, danger
4) brotherhood, effort, sacrifice
5) childhood, babies, kids and girls
6) home, family shrine
7) feast, celebration, gluttony
8) body, male member, also female genitalia (as between old greeks)
9) life-death-life cycle
... among other.

The character has at the left a foot in front of a roads crossisng, path, way, making decisions.

At the right has a pig (the guy or girl from which I have spoken)

In the center there is flesh or may be a moon.

Pig + flesh (breast) = piglet, the pig who always seeks the breast, a guy?
Pig + moon = the pig who has bad and good days, the cyclic pig, a girl?

Addig path you have the piglet (male or female) that having his/her own cycle is always making his/her own path, choosisng his/her own way. Say us!

As LiSe says:

Sometimes you are the pig, running for your life.
from: http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/hex_33-48/hex_e_33.htm

One of the things piglets can choose is to retreat or to conceal himself.

From that retreat W/B speaks like a strategist:

This retreat is a matter not of man's will but of natural law...
The meaning that lies hidden ... is important.

Maybe there is something hidden, perhaps in the mountain under the sky. The mountain trigram has the shape of a megalithic door (a dolmen) that used to be buried with the outer appearance of a hill with a secret access.

Yours,

Charly

maremaria · Sep 28, 2007

charly said:
Maybe there is something hidden, perhaps in the mountain under the sky. The mountain trigram has the shape of a megalithic door (a dolmen) that used to be buried with the outer appearance of a hill with a secret access.

Charly, Is that secret access an alternative solution to a problem, conflict etc and it can only be visible when we are in a retreat mode when we can see things from a distance or as Frank said "retreat from an over emotional respons" where we cannot see things clearly or in its actual size , significance etc. ?

Or
(another random thought) Is this secret passage leads us to our "sacred place" .
Hesse said :

within you there is a stillnes and a sanctuary to which you can retreat at any time and be yourself

"

Maria

getojack · Sep 28, 2007

Charly,

I think the pig was revered not only as a symbol of good luck and prosperity, but also for it's delicious meat... so a fleeing pig only means one thing to me, and that's that it's about to become dinner. As you said yourself, the middle character can mean "flesh" or "meat".

So, what do we have? Perhaps a pig fleeing from the slaughter?... In English, there's a saying, "Running around like a chicken with its head cut off". Although that's a rather long title for Hexagram 33, I think it's a more accurate translation than "Retreat."

getojack · Sep 28, 2007

maremaria said:
(another random thought) Is this secret passage leads us to our "sacred place" .
Hesse said :
"within you there is a stillnes and a sanctuary to which you can retreat at any time and be yourself"

Maria

No, the yin lines are the dark forces encroaching. For the little pig, it would be unfortunate to seek shelter in the mountain cave... there might be a bear or a mountain lion or something.

Sparhawk · Sep 28, 2007

You are in a cheerful mood today, aren't you?

charly · Sep 28, 2007

getojack said:
...
I think the pig was revered not only as a symbol of good luck and prosperity, but also for it's delicious meat...

Getojack:

About the taste for pork meat you have all the reason, look:

"... pork was "more cherished than sweetening or whiskey, something one could never have too much of," and pigs were so exalted that "not the sacred cow of Isis was the subject of more reverential attention. ..."
Marvin Harris: Good to eat.
http://www.amazon.com/Good-Eat-Riddles-Food-Culture/dp/1577660153

Pigs are true home meat factories around all the world, insuming only care (when they are babies), water and garbage as food. All the year are continuously fattened and when his day arrives they are killed, «sacrificed». When eaten, they preside the feast. Ever in the worse times they keep their heads. Every year the cyle returns.

Pigs are revered up to our times for not making upset the Ancestral Pig-God, as a means for assuring abundance and prosperity.

More about this:
http://www.mythinglinks.org/ct~animals~PigsHistory.html

But the I Ching says «retreat», if it was what the I Ching wants to say is an enigma.

Yours,

Charly

charly · Sep 28, 2007

maremaria said:
.. Is this secret passage leads us to our "sacred place"...
Hesse said...

Hi, María:

I belive so. Mountains where doors to the other world, sacred places for sacrifices, access to heaven and earth. In our inner withdraw we have more ease of contact with that sort of things.

Yours,

Charly

gene · Sep 29, 2007

That is why in most hexagrams with mountain trigrams, there is embedded the meaning of a door, a door that leads to an inner light. For keeping still in meditation is the doorway to the spiritual world. As such, hexagram 20 line 2 says "contemplation through the crack of a door. The doorway to the spiritual world has opened just enough that we can get a glimpse of its sublimity, and as such recognize the reality of it. It is when we get into line four that we begin our training in this spiritual dimension. In line three we make the choice which world we want to pay the most attention to.

Gene

rosada · Sep 29, 2007

THE JUDGEMENT

Retreat. Success.
In what is small, perseverance furthers.

Conditions are such that the hostile forces favored by the time are advancing. In this case retreat is the right course, and it is through retreat that success is achieved. But success consists in being able to carry out the retreat correctly. Retreat is not to be confused with flight. Flight means saving oneself under any circumstances, whereas retreat is a sign of strength. We must be careful not to miss the right moment while we are in full possession of power and position. Then we shall be able to interpret the signs of the time before it is too late and to prepare for provisional retreat instead of being drawn into a desparate life-and-death struggle. Thus we do not simply abandon the field to the opponent; we make it difficult for him to advance by showing perseverance in single acts of resistance. In this way we prepare, while retreating, for the counter movement. Understanding the laws of a constructive retreat of this sort is not easy. The meaning that lies hidden in such a time is important.

Commentary on the Decision
"Retreat. Success": this means success lies in retreating.
The firm is in the appropriate place and finds correspondence. This means that one is in accord with the time.
"In what is small, perseverance furthers": this means that it is pressing forward, and on the increase.
Great indeed is the meaning of the time of RETREAT.

Success lies in being able to retreat at the right moment and in the right manner. This success is made possible by the fact that the retreat is not the forced flight of a weak person but the voluntary withdrawal of a strong one, as is implicit in the nature of the strong ruler of the hexagram, the nine in the fifth place, which finds correspondence in the weak six in the second place. Strength is shown in that one does not attempt to force anything but shows perseverance in small matters alone, because the dark element, represented by the two yin lines below, is pressing forward and on the increase.
The meaning of the time of RETREAT is great; that is, it is vitally important to hit upon the moment when retreat is called for.

charly · Sep 29, 2007

rosada said:
Retreat. Success.
In what is small, perseverance furthers.
... success consists in being able to carry out the retreat correctly.

dobro p · Sep 29, 2007

rosada said:
THE JUDGEMENT

Retreat. Success.
In what is small, perseverance furthers.

Conditions are such that the hostile forces favored by the time are advancing. In this case retreat is the right course, and it is through retreat that success is achieved. But success consists in being able to carry out the retreat correctly.

I see no need to view the situation as containing hostile forces. Sometimes you just pull out cuz it's the right time to do that.

charly · Sep 29, 2007

sparhawk said:
You are in a cheerful mood today, aren't you?

Luis:

I was thinking about the Pig-lore of ours countries:

1)«Cada lechón en su teta», each piglet in his tit [the right way to do things].
2)«Ser como chanchos», to be like pigs [to be great friens].
3)«Cola de cerdo», pig's tail [a tool, a sort of hand drill].
4)«La culpa no es del chancho», the pig is not guilty [go to the deeper causes].
5)«A cada chancho le llega su San Martín», for each pig his St.Martin arrives [destiny].
6)«Ser un puerco», to be a pig [to be a dirty guy].
7)«Viene el chancho!», the pig comes! [comes the inspector in a train, tramway or bus].
8)«Chanchito práctico», Practical Pig [the Disney character,browm nose at school].
9)«Hacer la porquería», to do dirty tricks, something only suitable for pigs.

Can you ad something to that list?

Maybe you wonder what about the piglet and the retreat:

Firsth of all, Pig and Piglet are the same guy at different stages of his life, Pig when tall, piglet when little. Tall male pigs use to attack but although fat they have his wake side. At his time (St.Martin day?) even the tallest pigs become like little piglets, it's the time of retreat for pigs.

Un abrazo,

Charly

Sparhawk · Sep 29, 2007

charly said:
Can you ad something to that list?

Charly

LOL! No, but now I'm really hungry! I really miss a good "lechón a las brasas", the way is done down south... sigh! :rofl:

Now, about piglets and retreats, I'm sure you've seen one of the games that is played in county fairs (ferias rurales) in which kids run after piglets and try to catch them. The piglets are darn good at twisting and turning and evading capture. Quite funny to watch and a metaphorical lesson in evasion.

Of course, regardless of how good they are, they always end up in our plates... Perhaps that's the real moral of the story...

Un abrazo,

rosada · Oct 1, 2007

THE IMAGE

Mountain under heaven: the image of RETREAT.
Thus the superior man keeps the inferior man at a distance,
Not angrily but with reserve.

The mountain rises up under heaven, but owing to its nature it finally comes to a stop. Heaven on the other hand retreats upward before it into the distance and remains out of reach. This symbolizes the behavior of the superior man toward a climbing inferior; he retreats into his own thoughts as the inferior man comes forward. He does not hate him, for hatred is a form of subjective involvement by which we are bound to the hated object. The superior man shows strength (heaven) in that he brings the inferior man to a standstill (mountain) by his dignified reserve.

Trojina · Oct 1, 2007

sparhawk said:
Of course, regardless of how good they are, they always end up in our plates... Perhaps that's the real moral of the story...

Un abrazo,

I know you're joking but in 33 one does escape and its not always the sense of running away from but running towards the inner world in order to preserve ones values isn't it ? How did you mean the pigs ending up on plates was the real moral of the story - sounds like you think the retreat in 33 is no use ?

Memorizing the I Ching: 33. Tui / Retreat

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