24. Fu / Return ( The Turning Point )
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-- -- above K'UN THE RECEPTIVE
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-- -- below CHEN THE AROUSING, THUNDER
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The idea of a turning point arises from the fact that after the dark lines have pushed all of the light lines upward and out of the hexagram, another light enters the hexagram from below. The time of darkness is past. The winter solstice brings the victory of light. This hexagram is linked with the elevent month, the month of the solstice (December-January).

Happy Easter Happy Return

Wondering why the picture depicts a roof being mended to illustrate return ? Am I missing something obvious ?

trojan said:

Wondering why the picture depicts a roof being mended to illustrate return ? Am I missing something obvious ?

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If I'm not mistaken, it has to do with the calendrical meaning of Fu. It applies to the 11th month of the lunar calendar, or about December. It is a time to prepare for the hardships of winter. A time just after the harvest, when all the grain has been collected and the remaining, dry grass (chaff), is then used for such tasks as mending roofs and walls. It is also the only time of the year, in a farmer's life, when they have the time, and opportunity, for such chores. Winter is out for these. Spring and Summer are spent tending the fields. The first part of the fall is mainly for harvest. So, late fall and the first steps into winter is it.

Luis

Thanks Luis - funny the calendrical meaning seems a little out of kilter with the meanings I associate with 24. Perhaps I mistakenly broadly associate it with rebirth and it isn't - yet i didn't think it was about 'making ready 'either. I think of it as a turning point, a recovery point yet this doesn't tally especially with closing the passes and repairing roofs

Hmm..maybe rather than connecting hex 24. Return with the obvious return of Spring at Easter, we should associate hex 24 with the traditional date of Christ's birth, Dec. 24 (25).

24. Neptune (Earth) over Mars (Thunder)

Something starts to happen (Mars) in the Neptunian realm, i.e. on the archetypal level, in the collective unconscious, in dreamland, in our individual or collective imagination, in an ethereal realm, and so on.

Whatever it is, it is not yet physical, it is subtle, and we are probably not or only vaguely aware of it. Perhaps we feel it as "something is coming", as a kind of promise, as hope.

I think this Mars could also very well represent Kundalini, the 'snake' at the base of the spine. Or the snake of Paradise.
That's the same snake isn't it?

23.6

trojan said:

Wondering why the picture depicts a roof being mended to illustrate return ? Am I missing something obvious ?

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perhaps in answer to 23 line 6?

rosada said:

Hmm..maybe rather than connecting hex 24. Return with the obvious return of Spring at Easter, we should associate hex 24 with the traditional date of Christ's birth, Dec. 24 (25).

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Actually, they think that Jesus was probably born near the Spring Equinox. It would be odd for Shepards to be watching their flocks by night in the middle of December.

Cool connect, hollis. It would certainly make sence that if the inferior man's house is split apart, the next thing he should do is fix it up! Kinda encouraging to think the inferior man can move on too.

trojan said:

I think of it as a turning point, a recovery point yet this doesn't tally especially with closing the passes and repairing roofs

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Well, yes, but only if you take all turning points to be positive. In practice, this isn't so. The commence of winter is a "turning point". Quite drastic at that too. Since it is a cyclical season, it is a "return". All seasons "return" at some point. Being ready for the changes we "know" will come is the best way to pay homage to the meaning of "Return."

I also like the connection Hollis makes with 23. Repairing in 24 those things that are "stripped" is a very valid interpretation. Interesting to note that 23 is considered the 9th month, around October, in the lunar calendar. The commence of the harvest, also a way of "stripping."

Luis

In addition to some of the above, I think of it as a tree's energy returning to the ground. If the lines are looked at this way, it makes a lot of sense. Most often winter doesn't come all at once; it typically has several false starts: cold, then warm, then cool, then hot, and then winter arrives with its death grip. Repeated returns are dangerous, because winter catches the tree with its energy still outside. Missing the return altogether kills the tree. The first frost in 2.1 also refers to this, I believe. Time to be of earth, not of air.

rosada said:

Kinda encouraging to think the inferior man can move on too.

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Mistakes with the YJ are all about that, something I sure know about.

IC+ 24

24 Return (The Turning Point)
Returning
In a context of enlightenment, a new beginning, we utilise trust.

"FU : go back, turn back to the starting point; recur, reappear, come again; restore, recover, retrace; an earlier time or place. The ideogram: step and retrace a path."ERANOS p301

Pairs info:

In the binary sequence hexagram 24 pairs with hexagram 27.
This pairing reflects an overall sense of 'emptyness' which is resolved by (a) hexagram 24 and a return to the 'true' belief (integrating, re-integrating) and (b) by hungering to be filled and so grasping whatever is at hand (differentiating). This pairing also reflects filtration issues (the EARTH phase in five-phase theory) - such that 24 returns to the 'true' path (and so 'with enlightenment comes devotion') and 27 reflects the hungering that can come with this return as it can also reflect the hungering that leads to the return.

In the binary sequence hexagram 24 opposes hexagram 44.
This pair reflects issues of being drawn back to a path (24) vs being seduced away from a path (44).
At the LOCAL level we are dealing with an octet of hexagrams with the THUNDER trigram as base. In this sequence hexagram 24, the focus upon returning to the 'true' path, opposes hexagram 25, disentangling. More so, the exaggerated sense of asserting one's opinion without fear of, consideration of, consequence is reflected in a more balanced format through a 'soft' return to a 'true' belief.

In the traditional sequence hexagram 24 pairs with hexagram 23.
With this pair, just as 23 prunes, and does so from within the belief, so 24 returns to the belief. Both reflect 'coming back to'.
RETURN TO FAITH:

23 : return to the faith - through refurbishing, pruning; 23 refurbish, prune, comes out of a context described by hexagram 24 - returning

24 : return to the faith - through come back to; 24 returning comes out of a context described by hexagram 23 - pruning

In the traditional sequence hexagram 24 opposes hexagram 41.
In this pairing there is focus on issues of purity where 24 comes back to it and 41 focuses on manufacturing it.

The generic properties of hexagram 24 reflect the mixing of the generic properties of hexagram 27 with the generic properties of hexagram 23.
A combination of a need to be 'filled', together with a focus on pruning, on removing the chaff, is reflected in the 'return' focus of hexagram 24.

In the variations on a theme sequence, hexagram 24 complements hexagram 02
The pairing of hexagram 02 and 24 reflects the subtle differences in expression focused on the base line of a trigram. Here the 'receptivity' of yangness, as expressed in hexagram 02, is 'hardened' at a general level to be reflected in the focus of hexagram 24 in returning to the 'one true faith'. In pure yinness there is no such need for any particular where the natural devotion skills reflected in 02 elicit immediate, unconditional intimacy.

XOR examples:

Infrastructure (27-ness) is described by analogy to hex 23 with its focus on cutting back to the basics and so a return to such.

source of nourishment (48-ness) is described by analogy to 05 covering issues of opportunism (and so the distractions of such covered in the line comments) and the focus on the 'right time' seeding the return/begin etc.

The summary of the full spectrum is at:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/x000001.html

Hmm ots of new thoughts here for me to chew on. Yes good connection Hollis, new house needed, old one gone.

Getting muddled with connection to Christs birth and 24 ? I'd associate 24 with resurrection after death in 23 rather than actual physical birth, still I guess its problematic to take the comparison too far.

Luis I have to say I thought 24 did always imply a positive turning point rather than a change for the worse so I'm not too clear on your thoughts about that, but then I'm not used to considering the hexagrams calendrically. I'd never considered it as preparation for a turn for the worse Its one of those hexagrams I see always in a positive light, 23 shedding 24 growing again.

I like Bruces idea of return to earth, but link it with withdrawal. Somehow I felt 24 was about coming out of withdrawal ?

I'm probably more vague about this hexagram than i realised. It seems contradictory. In the judgement it says "Friends come without blame, to and fro goes the way" implying free movement yet in the Image it says the passes were closed and 'merchants and strangers did not go about'. The difference between friend and stranger decides, it seems, how freely you can travel ?

If you look at 24 calendrically as the beginning of winter, then Bruce's idea about energy returning to the earth makes more sense to me than Luis's point about a turning point before a drastic change to winter. Doesn't seem that drastic a change to me anyway... the change of the seasons, I mean. We kinda roll into winter after the fall harvest with its stripping of dead leaves/outdated ideas without too much trouble.

I don't see a return to earth as a withdrawal... withdrawal from what? Earth was taken to be the center of everything in ancient Chinese thought. And so the comment in the judgment saying 'Return may be referred to as seeing the center of the universe.'

The inner thunder and the outer earth working together harmoniously marks a turning point, does it not? Thus friends come and go along the way and strangers and merchants are kept at bay. Sounds pretty good to me.

trojan said:

I'd associate 24 with resurrection after death in 23 rather than actual physical birth, still I guess its problematic to take the comparison too far.

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If too far, yes, but if it is considered that Jesus' seed came not from earth but from heaven, then his return to heaven isn't problematic. What is problematic is that his birth is said to be "supernatural", while Yi's 24 is simply natural, so rather than Jesus returning to earth, he returns to heaven.

trojan said:

In the judgement it says "Friends come without blame, to and fro goes the way" implying free movement yet in the Image it says the passes were closed and 'merchants and strangers did not go about'. The difference between friend and stranger decides, it seems, how freely you can travel ?

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'Friends coming, going out and coming in, to and fro goes the way' all occurs before the return: then 'on the seventh day comes return.' As with the Sabbath, all commerce and activity ceases on the seventh day. It is said, even God took a day off after his creation. I also associate a sense of acceptance in regarding all things transient during the time of 24, even the coming and going of friends.

getojack said:

I don't see a return to earth as a withdrawal... withdrawal from what? Earth was taken to be the center of everything in ancient Chinese thought. And so the comment in the judgment saying 'Return may be referred to as seeing the center of the universe.'

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Well, energy does withdraw from a tree's branches, so in that sense withdrawal makes sense to me. But unlike 33, the withdrawal is a natural sequential phenomena, rather than a deliberate choice to withdraw. But I think 33 and 24 are alike, in that they both withdraw from something to something.

bruce_g said:

'Friends coming, going out and coming in, to and fro goes the way' all occurs before the return: then 'on the seventh day comes return.' As with the Sabbath, all commerce and activity ceases on the seventh day. It is said, even God took a day off after his creation. I also associate a sense of acceptance in regarding all things transient during the time of 24, even the coming and going of friends.

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So you see 24 as Sunday? Or Easter Sunday? Somehow I doubt that's what the creators of the Yi intended. Although it's quite possible they associated it with the return of the spirits of their ancestors.

getojack said:

So you see 24 as Sunday? Or Easter Sunday? Somehow I doubt that's what the creators of the Yi intended. Although it's quite possible they associated it with the return of the spirits of their ancestors.

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Theoretically, yes, I think the Sabbath expresses the same idea as 24, though the seventh day referred to Saturday rather than Sunday, originally. When interpreting mythology, the names of people and things are contextually localized, but express the same ideas.

rosada said:

Hmm..maybe rather than connecting hex 24. Return with the obvious return of Spring at Easter, we should associate hex 24 with the traditional date of Christ's birth, Dec. 24 (25).

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In acupuncture 24 has a relation with the galbladder meridian in the Chinese clock, that's the energie that stands for courage, and to say the right thing.
Galbladder is the expression of the first branch Tze, which has as meaning small child, birth, seed, beginning. Connected with trigram Heaven, and chinese sign Rat.

Because it stands in the north(december) it also has a relation with water as the most flexible element, giving it such a yang power.

Everything together it stands for regeneration and vegetation.

Very cool info Frank. Just visited people in the hospital, with gallbladder problems. All at once, two people in the hospital with gall bladder problems, and western medicine saying it's no problem to take it out, the gall bladder is not necessary.

24: "Return is the movement of the Tao". Something so simple yet I do not understand it.

So we should assume 24. Return is connected with Winter Solstice and discribes how energy regularly returns to it's source?

rosada said:

So we should assume 24. Return is connected with Winter Solstice and discribes how energy regularly returns to it's source?

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If 24 is seen as the entire cycle of death and rebirth, yes, I think that's reasonable to say. I mentioned the tree's energy returning to the ground, but that is only the beginning of the cycle. The other half is returning to outward life. Yang returns in line 1, after its end of 23.6. But, when I receive 24, I generally see it as the beginning of the cycle, which in turn leads to the return of life. The solstice can be seen as "dead center" of that cycle - the actual turning point.

getojack said:

I don't see a return to earth as a withdrawal... withdrawal from what? Earth was taken to be the center of everything in ancient Chinese thought. And so the comment in the judgment saying 'Return may be referred to as seeing the center of the universe.'

The inner thunder and the outer earth working together harmoniously marks a turning point, does it not? Thus friends come and go along the way and strangers and merchants are kept at bay. Sounds pretty good to me.

Click to expand...

Doesn't have to be withdrawal from something, I meant energy withdrawing when it is not the growing season, back into the earth.

bruce_g said:

The solstice can be seen as "dead center" of that cycle - the actual turning point.

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Yes, the 'dead' center, is actually the point, the fertile vulnerability,' the dead', on which comes the return.

bruce_g said:

'Friends coming, going out and coming in, to and fro goes the way' all occurs before the return: then 'on the seventh day comes return.' As with the Sabbath, all commerce and activity ceases on the seventh day. It is said, even God took a day off after his creation. I also associate a sense of acceptance in regarding all things transient during the time of 24, even the coming and going of friends.

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Ah so friends come and go before the return, how come I never figured that out myself

trojan said:

Ah so friends come and go before the return, how come I never figured that out myself

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Cuz it's not made very clear, and because we tend to take each gua as a fixed point in time rather than a sequence of change. Actually, in stating 'friends come and go' before the return is not all there is to friends coming and going, but it is part of it. If one sees all the elements as friends, the return itself is a friend, which comes and goes. But that is a more subtle way of seeing it.

I also think we wrestle with death as a final end, rather than what produces the elements for a new birth. We can deal with it in theory, such as in religious theory or beliefs, but it is still remote to us in real terms. Early agricultural societies, on the other hand, take 24 as an every day fact of life. There is no life without death. The circle of life includes both.

getojack said:

If you look at 24 calendrically as the beginning of winter, then Bruce's idea about energy returning to the earth makes more sense to me than Luis's point about a turning point before a drastic change to winter. Doesn't seem that drastic a change to me anyway... the change of the seasons, I mean. We kinda roll into winter after the fall harvest with its stripping of dead leaves/outdated ideas without too much trouble.

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Trojan was trying to reconcile the picture in the card with the general meaning of 24. That's what I tried to explain. Some things are just too obvious to explain in detail, no? Of course there isn't a switch one flicks to go from a "mild Fall" to a "harsh Winter". The point is to be prepared for it as you know the harshness is coming...

L