Memorizing Hexigram 17. Sui / Following

rosada · Dec 12, 2006

17. Sui / Following

The trigram Tui, the Joyous, whose attribute is gladness, is above; Chen, the Arousing, which has the attribute of movement is below. Joy in movement induces following. The Joyous is the youngest daughter, while the Arousing is the eldest son. An older man defers to a young girl and shows her consideration. By this he moves her to follow him.

martin · Dec 12, 2006

17. Venus (Lake) on top of Mars (Thunder).

A possible interpretation is that the Martial energy expresses itself in a Venusian way. Less direct and rough, more cooperative, adaptive, refined, perhaps artful, etcetera. The Martial tendency to 'fight' (*) will be less.
If there is conflict in the air the Venusian Mars will probably accept - and perhaps actively (Mars) seek - ways to bridge the differences.

One astrology program has for harmonious aspects of Mars and Venus: ".. brings a certain charisma and you seem to naturally draw people around you"
And "you are simply fun and pleasant to be around and that is why you attract so much attention"

It also mentions "sex appeal". Venus and Mars are both physical and related to the senses and to sexuality, where Mars represents passion and Venus more something like sensuality.
If men indeed come from Mars and women from Venus, Venus on top of Mars might literally mean ...

On the problematic side, there can be an overdose of sensuality/sexuality with this combination.
But traditional interpretation seems to focus more on sexuality (without being very explicit about it) in hexagram 54, the other Lake/Thunder combination.
Another potential problem is ambiguity: love (Venus)-hate (Mars). Traditionally also more a hex 54 issue?

* Astrology associates fight/flight with Mars(aggression)/Saturn(fear). Both planets rule the adrenal glands.
Translated to trigams that would be Thunder/Mountain.

lightofreason · Dec 13, 2006

IC+

17 Following
Believing
In a context of enlightenment we utilise intensity.

"SUI : come or go after; pursue, impelled to move; come after in inevitable sequence; move in the same direction, comply with what is ahead; follow a way or religion; according to, next, subsequent. The ideogram: go and fall, unavoidable movement" ERANOS p242

In the binary sequence hexagram 17 pairs with hexagram 25.
This pairing reflects the unconditional act of 'following' as compared to the conditional act of standing to assert one's perspective regardless of consequence.

In the binary sequence hexagram 17 opposes hexagram 18.
This pairing reflects differences in (a) developing a 'new' belief system (17) vs (b) correcting the 'errors' that can pop up in 'old' belief systems - errors resulting from neglect or outright corruption (18).

At the LOCAL level we are dealing with an octet of hexagrams with the THUNDER trigram as base. In this sequence hexagram 27, the focus upon hungering, 'opposes' hexagram 17, establishing a belief, someone/something to follow. More so, the exaggerated sense of finding a particular belief system (17) is reflected in a more balanced format through a focus on using discernment in ingesting 'brain food' (27).

In the traditional sequence hexagram 17 pairs with hexagram 18.
BELIEFS:

17 : belief - through establishing to follow; 17, following comes out of a context decribed by hexagram 12 - neutralising

18 : belief - through re-establish through correcting errors; 18, correcting comes out of a context described by hexagram 11 - balancing

In the traditional sequence hexagram 17 opposes hexagram 48.
The generic properties of hexagram 17 reflect the mixing of the generic properties of hexagram 25 with the generic properties of hexagram 12.

Mixing the assertion of one's perspective free of considering consequences (25) with a focus on neutralising attacks of others upon faith (12) reflects the generic properties of hexagram 17.

Some spectrum info:

infrastructure, skeletal form, is described by analogy to hexagram 12 with its focus on supporting a faith/belief system. Here we find one to support.

Source of nourishment is described by analogy to hexagram 34 - being invigorated by some, seen to be, powerful source.

17 starts with, keeps coming back to, a state described by analogy to hexagram 45 - a congregation of faithful (and so for 17 an influence on the 'newbie')

Full spectrum summarised in the line positions section of:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/x011001.html

Chris.

dobro p · Dec 13, 2006

"An older man defers to a young girl and shows her consideration. By this he moves her to follow him."

I think this is corn flakes. In my experience, young girls are very seldom moved to follow older men, no matter how much consideration is shown.

rosada · Dec 13, 2006

Not in romance maybe, but what about older brothers and adoring little sisters?

bruce_g · Dec 13, 2006

Corn flakes aren’t so bad.

Thunder is beneath lake. If the old guy has no thunder, then she won’t be moved, cuz he’s just another old guy. If he has thunder, she is “moved”, and will open to his influence.

One of the most obvious (and humorous) expressions I’ve seen of this metaphor for 17 is in watching Joseph Campbell lecture to an audience of young women. They are glued to his every word, enraptured through his acquired wisdom, knowledge and experience. He evokes their interest and attention, and they’re rarely late for his class. In a sense, he charms them to further themselves.

In contrast, the man and woman of 31 are both young; it is a peer relationship, more compatible for breeding.

bruce_g · Dec 13, 2006

In addition, re: Campbell example..

Going inside is seen not by falling asleep but by becoming quiet inside, giving their output a rest, and opening up to receive.

Another interesting feature of 17 is that, the one who receives then has more to give, and so the follower obtains a following. Maybe her children; for it’s doubtful her husband (peer) listens to her attentively, as does the older man. After all, where do you think his thunder comes from?

frank_r · Dec 13, 2006

17 is one of the 8 kwantum hexagrams. The path between the trigrams water is made with 17.
So to stay into the stream of life(water) and go with the flow is done by 17.

If you look to the duograms then there is from the bottum young yin, old yin, young yang,, old yang and young yin.
So at the places 1-3-5 they are all three young, on the outside yin, in the middle yang and on 2 - 4 there is old yin and yang.

bruce_g said:
One of the most obvious (and humorous) expressions I’ve seen of this metaphor for 17 is in watching Joseph Campbell lecture to an audience of young women. They are glued to his every word, enraptured through his acquired wisdom, knowledge and experience. He evokes their interest and attention, and they’re rarely late for his class. In a sense, he charms them to further themselves.

The stability on the even places is done with the wisdom of the old and the creativity on the uneven places is done with the energy of the possibilties, the young ones.

bruce_g · Dec 13, 2006

frank_r said:
The stability on the even places is done with the wisdom of the old and the creativity on the uneven places is done with the energy of the possibilties, the young ones.

I like that.

rosada · Dec 13, 2006

Thinking of the expression "Nature abhors a vacumn," perhaps the flow is that Thunder moves, and then the Lake pours in to the space now left vacant? Or would that be more the dynamic of 54 when Thunder is above Lake?

rosada · Dec 13, 2006

My husband got up first this morning as usual. A few minutes later I wandered out into the livingroom after him, again as usual. After we sat for a bit I noticed the time. "What the heck are we doing up at 4:30?" I ask. "Oh, I just felt like getting up. What are you doing?" he says. Hmmm. Anyway, he did make us coffee, which I thought showed "consideration."

rosada · Dec 13, 2006

17. Following - The Judgement

THE JUDGEMENT

Following has supreme success.
Perseverance furthers. No blame.

In order to obtain a following one must first know how to adapt oneself. If a man would rule he must first learn to serve, for only in this way does he secure from those below him the joyous assent that is necessary if they are to follow him.
-Wilhelm

dobro p · Dec 13, 2006

I've never seen it as 'obtaining a following' - that Confucian spin just seemed like a membership drive to me right from the beginning. I'd say it's much more generic: something worthy of being followed being followed. (Ha! Bet you never saw 'being followed being followed' before...) I see it this way because of the meaning of its pairing, 18, which is all about something *not* worthy of being followed.

hilary · Dec 13, 2006

Bet you never saw 'being followed being followed' before...

Indeed not. Only at Clarity.

Um. I haven't had much experience of 17 talking about someone following another person, or drawing a following. It's tended to be much more to do with following the currents, receiving signs and guidance and going with it. Sometimes that means obvious synchronicity, help turning up just when you need it. Sometimes it takes the form of apparent obstacles, and the challenge is to recognise that what we interpret as being 'stuck' is actually the natural flow going at a pace that wasn't on our agenda. So we need to recognise that moving with the creative process is 'without fault' and follow the junzi inside for rest and renewal.

I think the point of 18 is that you need to look at what's at work, take the lid off and become aware enough that you can recognise the way the current's pulling you and do something different, cross the river. 17 may have currents running just as deep, just as far from conscious awareness (the thunder in the lake like a power of initiative well below the reflective surface), but it's trustworthy.

bruce_g · Dec 14, 2006

hilary said:
So we need to recognise that moving with the creative process is 'without fault' and follow the junzi inside for rest and renewal.

Completely agree with this, but would add illumination or further growth to the list. The J. Campbell example was a metaphor for the inner process.

rosada · Dec 14, 2006

16. Enthusiasm attracts a
17. Following

this is true whether the subject is worthy or silly.

hilary · Dec 14, 2006

I'm sure good old J. Campbell would be delighted to become such a metaphor.

I've an idea that when the junzi goes inside to rest, he'll meet something remarkable in his dreams. Maybe that's a dragon on the lake-bed.

The Sequence doesn't actually say Enthusiasm 'attracts a following', just that following happens - so the connection's left to our imaginations. It feels to me as if something that started out as an enthusiasm/ inspiration of ours has gone inward (thunder over the earth become thunder in the lake) and become a more powerful motor for change. Maybe desire, maybe habit, maybe something else.

'Following.
Yuan heng li zhen.
No mistake.'

To my mind that suggests following is a good idea overall.

bruce_g · Dec 14, 2006

hilary said:
I've an idea that when the junzi goes inside to rest, he'll meet something remarkable in his dreams. Maybe that's a dragon on the lake-bed.

To my mind that suggests following is a good idea overall.

So do I!

http://www.yijing.nl/hexagrams/17.htm

rosada · Dec 14, 2006

"Where there is enthusiasm, there is certtain to be following. Hence there follows the hexagram of FOLLOWING"
-Wilhelm

"Where attention goes, energy flows."
Abraham/Hicks

"Follow your bliss."
Joseph Campbell

rosada · Dec 14, 2006

Perhaps folks wont mind FOLLOWING the calendar and slowing this thread down over the next week. By posting a new line every other day we can make 17 last through Christmas and Work on What Has Been Spoiled (Diets? Budgets?) when it's time to take down the tree.

I'll post THE IMAGE tomorrow.

hilary · Dec 14, 2006

rosada said:
"Where there is enthusiasm, there is certtain to be following. Hence there follows the hexagram of FOLLOWING"
-Wilhelm

"Where attention goes, energy flows."
Abraham/Hicks

"Follow your bliss."
Joseph Campbell

Lovely correlations! I hadn't thought of either of those. Thanks.

dobro p · Dec 14, 2006

rosada said:
16. Enthusiasm attracts a
17. Following

Sure. And...

1. The Creative attracts a
17. Following

15. Modesty attracts a
17. Following

34. Great Power attracts a
17. Following

35. Progress attacts a
17. Following

(Nothing succeeds like success, right?)

And so on. You can make a case for almost any hexagram sequenced before or after almost any other hexagram. Just look at the relation between any two hexagrams and then map sequence or cause/effect onto the relationship. Hex 2 could be followed by 54. Or by 31. Or by 37. The traditional sequence is a mere convention, and not more deeply meaningful than that. IMO.

martin · Dec 14, 2006

The trigrams Thunder and Lake are of course not exactly the same as Mars and Venus in western astrology but the similarity is striking. That makes me think that physical attraction/magnetism must be an important factor in the 'following' of hexagram 17. At least if it is about one person following another.

But I think this Mars-Venus pairing could also indicate integration or balance of male and female energies in one person. Or of Anima and Animus perhaps. :hug:

And what Hilary said, "following the currents, receiving signs and guidance and going with it", would that not be easier for somebody who is balanced or integrated in this sense?

martin · Dec 14, 2006

Perhaps, Bruce, that is more or less the same as what you meant when you wrote "The J. Campbell example was a metaphor for the inner process." ?

martin · Dec 14, 2006

Perhaps this old man is hexagram 17 personified?

bruce_g · Dec 14, 2006

martin said:
Perhaps, Bruce, that is more or less the same as what you meant when you wrote "The J. Campbell example was a metaphor for the inner process." ?

Hi Martin,

I’m afraid I’m not knowledgeable enough in astrology (Mars/Venus) to say whether it’s a good or bad comparison to my JC metaphor. However, in Yi speak, as you know, thunder and lake aren’t directly opposites, such as Anima/Animus relationship, which I see as 11 or 12.

Trojina · Dec 15, 2006

dobro said:
Sure. And...

1. The Creative attracts a
17. Following

15. Modesty attracts a
17. Following

34. Great Power attracts a
17. Following

35. Progress attacts a
17. Following

(Nothing succeeds like success, right?)

And so on. You can make a case for almost any hexagram sequenced before or after almost any other hexagram. Just look at the relation between any two hexagrams and then map sequence or cause/effect onto the relationship. Hex 2 could be followed by 54. Or by 31. Or by 37. The traditional sequence is a mere convention, and not more deeply meaningful than that. IMO.

I agree, I've always felt that instinctively, quite strongly . I just don't see the hexagrams as following this linear pattern, its not linear its circular hence any hexagram can follow or lead perfectly to any other.

rosada · Dec 15, 2006

17.
THE IMAGE
Thunder in the middle of the lake:
The image of FOLLOWING.
Thus the superior at nightfall
Goes indoors for rest and recuperation.

In the autumn electricity withdraws into the earth again and
rests. Here it is the thunder in the middle of the lake that
serves as the image - thunder in its winter rest, not thunder
in motion. the idea of following in the sence of adaptation to
the demands of the time grows out of this image. Thunder in
the middle of the lake indicates a time of darkness and rest.
Similarly, a superior man, after being tirelessly active all day,
allows himself rest and recuperation at night.

No situation can become favorable until one is able to adapt to it and does not wear himself out with mistaken resistance.
-Wilhelm

rosada · Dec 15, 2006

I think we've gotten kinda woppsed up with the meaning of Following, symultaneously discussing it as a hexagram on it's own, and in it's relationship to 16. Enthusiasm particularly whether Enthusiasm necessarily ought be followed by Following. As dobro and Trojan have pointed out, a case could be made for any order of the hexagram pairs. So perhaps "Where there is enthusiasm, there is certain to be a following" should not be considered more than a useful memory device. In his Miscellaneous Notes, btw, Wilhelm comments that "ENTHUSIASM leads to inertia." So perhaps this is also helpful for remembering the meaning of FOLLOWING. That it is about adapting to the times, because after a show of ENTHUSIASM one needs to rest.

As far what 17. FOLLOWING means on it's own, we now consider what Thunder beneath the Lake really is all about. (to be continued)

bruce_g · Dec 15, 2006

I agree, any hexagram can relate with any other hexagram and form a story. However, since Rosada has chosen to go through all 64 hexagrams in chronological order, wouldn’t it make sense to write the story accordingly? No-one's said it's an official system, order or sequence. Enthusiasm does indeed obtain a following, and since 17 follows 16, why not get in the groove and jam with it?

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