Memorizing the I Ching. Hexagram 14. Ta Yu / Possession in Great Measure

rosada · Nov 13, 2006

THE JUDGEMENT
POSSESSION IN GREAT MEASURE
Supreme success.

The two trigrams indicate that strength and clarity unite. Possession in great measure is determined by fate and accords with the time.

How is it possible that the weak line has power to hold the strong line fast and to possess them? It is done by virtue of unselfisn modesty.

The time is favorable - a time of strength within, clarity and culture without. Power is expressing itself in a graceful and controlled way. This brings supreme success and wealth.

dobro · Nov 13, 2006

"Possession in Great Measure". Yeah, right. Why dress it up? It's Big Having, right? lol

lightofreason · Nov 14, 2006

IC+

14 Possession in Great Measure
Directing from the Centre
In a context of perseverence we utilise setting directions (an ideology)

"TA YU -

TA : big, noble, important, very; orient the will toward a self-imposed goal, impose direction; ability to lead or guide your life...

YU : be in possession of, have, own; possessions; opposite of lack WU" ERANOS p215

Some pairs:

In the binary sequence hexagram 14 pairs with hexagram 34.
This pair reflects a core sense of motivating, be it in the form of unconditional inspiration from the 'great', hexagram 34, or the particular, and so conditional, direction-setting from the centre, hexagram 14.

In the binary sequence hexagram 14 opposes hexagram 08.
This pairing reflects a passive form of control, as in a collective at the level of being 'cultish' (hexagram 08) versus a more active form of control sourced at the centre of things (hexagram 14). As such hexagram 08 is focused on issues of devotion used to establish control versus hexagram 14 with a focus on perseverence used to establish a sense of direction and so of development.

At the LOCAL level we are dealing with an octet of hexagrams with the HEAVEN trigram as base. In this sequence hexagram 14, the focus upon being the centre of guidence, source of direction-setting, 'opposes' hexagram 05 where we wait. More so, the strong assertion of direction of 14 is reflected in a more balanced format by the focus of waiting and 'integrating' reflected in 05.

In the traditional sequence hexagram 14 pairs with hexagram 13.
IMPOSE DIRECTION:

13 : impose directions through associations - passive; 13 loose associations comes out of a context decribed by hexagram 31 - wooing, restrained structuring

14 : impose directions through associations - active; 14 centered, directing associations comes out of a context described by hexagram 32 - strong commitment

In the traditional sequence hexagram 14 opposes hexagram 51.

The generic properties of hexagram 14 reflect the mixing of the generic properties of hexagram 34 with the generic properties of hexagram 32.

Here the mixing of commitment (32) with a sense of invigorating (34) is reflected in the properties of hexagram 14.

Spectrum.... (fine hilary fine ... http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/x101111.html - see the heading marked 'line positions'. .. and so infrastructure is described by analogy to 31. etc etc )

frank_r · Nov 14, 2006

On top fire below heaven, the same as the postions in the King Wen en Fu Shi sequence.
It's the season of summer in full glory.

Because heaven is atracted to earth, it gets yin to express itself.

Heaven on earth is like fire, the sun is the expression of heaven. Without the yin inside the fire, there is nothing what can be physical. The expression of heaven is like heat in the summer.

It's like human dignity,it has only one yin line, the 5th the King line, which one is of course the ruler of the hexagram. Both heaven and fire tend to go upwards, but the ruler of the 5th line stays in contact with the yang line on the second position, the line which is the closest to our deepest inner yin. The one which keeps us on earth.

rosada · Nov 15, 2006

THE IMAGE
Fire in heaven above:
The image of POSSESSION IN GREAT MEASURE.
thus the superior man curbs evil and furthers good,
And thereby obeys the benevolent will of heaven.

ewald · Nov 15, 2006

I don't think this hexagram is about possession at all, actually. While you can translate 有 with "having" and "possession," it often means something like "there is" in the Yi. That's about "presence."

As that fits better with the overall theme of hex. 14, I have "Noble Presence" for the hexagram name. "Great Presence" would be possible too.

lightofreason · Nov 15, 2006

ewald said:
I don't think this hexagram is about possession at all, actually. While you can translate 有 with "having" and "possession," it often means something like "there is" in the Yi. That's about "presence."

As that fits better with the overall theme of hex. 14, I have "Noble Presence" for the hexagram name. "Great Presence" would be possible too.

I agree - the vibe I get is reflected in the sharing of space wih 34 - there is 'someone' (presence) leading things. In 34 the focus is on the leader performing unconditional invigoration, motivation. In 14 the leader is more focused, more particular in direction etc (and so ideology). With that attitude one can 'benefit' - but at the same time there is the emotional focus on issues covering anger (persevering, singlemindedness etc) context in which is operating issues of acceptance.

as 08 covers PASSIVE attraction to a court/king in general, here it is active.
as 20 covers PASSIVE attraction is to a particular person/thing, in 34 it is more active.

the infrastructure of 14, its skeltal form, is described by analogy to 32 and so a general sense of commitment, focus etc and that serves as a clue to what we are dealing with.

Chris.

lightofreason · Nov 15, 2006

IC+ image

"[With perseverence comes direction]. [Power through direction] : [Forceful & Goal Directed] Fire resides above heaven : Possessing the Great. One terminates hate to spread[/show] improvement, [Could be a political move] and uses yielding to 'God' to let go of individual destiny (one's own fate). [To explicitly (publicly) put one's fate in god's hands rather than to retain some control. Politically useful as it enables the denial of responsibility]".

There is a focus on a charismatic type here, as there is in its pair member - 34.

A problem in hexagrams with heaven as base is the possibility of hubris.

Chris.

rosada · Nov 15, 2006

13.1

14.1
Nine at the beginning means:
No relationship with what is harmful;
There is no blame in this.
If one remains concious of the difficulty,
One remains without blame.

Great possession that is still at the beginnings and that has not yet been challenged brings no blame, since there has been no opportunity for mistakes. Yet there are many difficulties to be overcome. It is only by remaining conscious of these difficulties that one can keep inwardly free of possible arrogance and wastefulness, and thus in principle
overcome all cause for blame.
-Wilhelm.

rosada · Nov 15, 2006

Advice to myself:
Don't spend money on what you don't need.
It's not your responcibility to pay the shop keeper's rent!
Besides, you must remember you have your own expenses coming up.
Thus you'll have no problems.

dobro · Nov 15, 2006

ewald said:
I don't think this hexagram is about possession at all, actually. While you can translate 有 with "having" and "possession," it often means something like "there is" in the Yi. That's about "presence."

As that fits better with the overall theme of hex. 14, I have "Noble Presence" for the hexagram name. "Great Presence" would be possible too.

You're right about 'there is', but I'm not sure I agree with your applying it to 14. My understanding is that when it means 'there is' instead of 'having', it's followed by an object, like 'having direction' which can be rendered 'there's a direction'.

Also, I'm *really* into pairs of hexagrams when it comes to comparing and contrasting meanings - it seems to me that a pair shares a common theme on the one hand (sometimes it's a polarity that's shared) and expresses a distinction within that them. 14 is paired with 13. 13 is about uniting with others; 14's about uniting with a great orientation or idea.

ewald · Nov 15, 2006

dobro said:
You're right about 'there is', but I'm not sure I agree with your applying it to 14. My understanding is that when it means 'there is' instead of 'having', it's followed by an object, like 'having direction' which can be rendered 'there's a direction'.

As there is no object following it, it means "presence" instead of "there is." When "there is" something, something is "present."

"Having" is a special case of "presence." It is a presence that is belonging to someone.

I don't see how the theme of this hexagram is about "having." There are no issues here of greed, acquiring objects, or objects belonging to someone. 14 is about being present in a certain way, a "great" or "noble" way.

ewald · Nov 15, 2006

rosada said:
13.1

Are you sure?

Trojina · Nov 15, 2006

ewald said:
As there is no object following it, it means "presence" instead of "there is." When "there is" something, something is "present."

"Having" is a special case of "presence." It is a presence that is belonging to someone.

I don't see how the theme of this hexagram is about "having." There are no issues here of greed, acquiring objects, or objects belonging to someone. 14 is about being present in a certain way, a "great" or "noble" way.

Having doesn't have to be connected with greed. That is to narrow the sense of the idea of having. I equate 14 with being full, having in the sense of being complete, and this can be reflected on a need fulfilled on a material level. Can't deny what happens on a material level can hugely affect one.

ewald · Nov 15, 2006

trojan said:
Having doesn't have to be connected with greed.

Indeed. I never claimed that. But if a hexagram would be about "having," it could be one of the issues coming up.

trojan said:
I equate 14 with being full, having in the sense of being complete

I equate fullness and being complete with being present. Perhaps having read a lot of Almaas has something to do with that.

trojan said:
this can be reflected on a need fulfilled on a material level

Can you indicate one of the lines in #14 that is about "having" on a material level?

ewald · Nov 15, 2006

I think it's easy for someone coming from modern Western society, with it's obsession with "having" and "possession," to take "having" as a universal concept. But it's a bias. I don't think an equal obsession was there in Zhou times.

Trojina · Nov 15, 2006

ewald said:
I equate fullness and being complete with being present. Perhaps having read a lot of Almaas has something to do with that.

Yes so do I

Can you indicate one of the lines in #14 that is about "having" on a material level?

Why do you ask me to do this

I am not saying any part of hex 14 or its lines is about having on a material level only, but if one asks Yi a question about material possessions then theres no reason the lines should not relate to them.
Time and time over I happen to have received this hexagram with regard to a fortunate outcome over an expenditure that has some import in my life, that affects my life, such as my vehicle, my property etc. Not always, sometimes I feel it relates to my being in possession of a situation inasmuch as being sovereign in it, my will being effective in it, that is why I think there is the warning in 14 not to abuse the 'having' you are in the position of experiencing.

You said "I don't see how the theme of this hexagram is about having. There are no issues here of greed, acquiring objects....". I think you object to the word 'having' because you relate it only to material having, so you want to change the word 'having' to something else thats more fitting for you ? I just never saw the term 'having' as only relating to material things in the first place.

Also of course i would say there is quite a strong warning against greed in 14, not necessarily always of objects but any kind of possessing, line 3 for example saying how a prince can offer up his blessings, a petty man cannot (in Wilhelm).

ewald · Nov 16, 2006

trojan said:
Not always, sometimes I feel it relates to my being in possession of a situation inasmuch as being sovereign in it, my will being effective in it, that is why I think there is the warning in 14 not to abuse the 'having' you are in the position of experiencing.

I prefer to express that by talking about being present in a situation, as opposed to being in possession of it. Being in possession of a situation to me suggests having almost total control over it, being in charge, and I don't think that is the case in #14.

trojan said:
I think you object to the word 'having' because you relate it only to material having, so you want to change the word 'having' to something else thats more fitting for you ? I just never saw the term 'having' as only relating to material things in the first place.

I object to it because it suggests that #14 is about "having" in general, so ownership, and about material having in particular, and I don't see that expressed in the lines. I want to have a translation of the hexagram name that is less ambiguous, so doesn't suggest aspects that aren't there (like this being about ownership).

trojan said:
Also of course i would say there is quite a strong warning against greed in 14, not necessarily always of objects but any kind of possessing, line 3 for example saying how a prince can offer up his blessings, a petty man cannot (in Wilhelm).

I don't think 14.3 is as much warning against greed, as it is against not giving (stingyness). Perhaps one can see that as being on the theme of "having." That is the only line that I can see having something to do with "having," though, which might be because I do translate several lines quite differently from Wilhelm (I for instance don't see anything that can be translated with "neighbor" or "difference" in 14.4).

lightofreason · Nov 16, 2006

IC+

14.Line 1
"Devoid of the ability to properly communicate is a hindrance but not harmful. It just makes work that much harder. No blame."

rosada · Nov 17, 2006

14.2

14.2
Nine in the second place means:
A big wagon for loading.
One may undertake something.
No blame.

Great possession consists not only in the quantity of goods at one's disposal, but, first and foremost, in their mobility and utility, for then they can be used in undertakings, and we remain free of embarrassment and mistakes. The big wagon, which will carry a heavy load and in which one can journey far, means that there are at hand able helpers who give their support and are equal to the task. One can load great responcibility upon such persons, and this is necessary in important undertakings.
-Wilhelm

rosada · Nov 17, 2006

I apologize for being so sporatic in the posting of the lines here lately. I will be back home Tuesday so hopefully then I'll be able to be more reliable.
Meanwhile I've been meaning to hang one of my mother's water colors in the hall at her senior residence. It's been stored under her bed for years giving pleasure to no one. Today a friend of mine brought over a hammer and with the help of this supportive friend the painting is up. This seems like an example of 14.2. Although she painted and possessed the painting, it wasn't a Possession in Great Measure until we had the tools and the help to display it properly.

ewald · Nov 17, 2006

14.2
Being Present in a Noble way means that one makes available the means that one has to help others if necessary.

ewald · Nov 17, 2006

14.1
Being Present in a Noble way means that one refrains from harmful actions, and when one does get involved in something harmful, that one does take the trouble to back away from that.

rosada · Nov 17, 2006

These clear simple statements are very helpful, ewald. I hope you'll continue them.

Thinking about possible catch phrases for 14.2:

You can't take it with you.

Faith can move mountains.

When I finally got it all together,
I forgot where I put it.

(Intending to post 14.3 later on today.)

lightofreason · Nov 18, 2006

Line 2
"One has the tools to help in acquiring wealth (e.g. a wagon to carry it all, people to supervise it) but what is infact needed is a goal or direction to take. No blame."

with/from directing (14) comes guiding/direction-setting (30)

From the XOR realm, line position 2 equates with the 07-ness of a hexagram, here that 'uniforming/uniformity' is in the form of some ideology that acts to 'uniform' the individual(s).

rosada · Nov 18, 2006

14.3

14.3
Nine in the third place maens:
A prince offers it to the son of Heaven.
A petty man cannot do this.

A magnanimous, liberal minded man should not regard what he possesses as his exclusive personal property, but should place it at the disposal of the ruler or the people at large. In so doing he takes the right attitude towards his possessions, which as personal property can never endure. A petty man is incapable of this. He is harmed by great possessions, because instead of sacrificing them, he would keep them for himself.
-Wilhelm

lightofreason · Nov 18, 2006

Line 3
"One takes advantage of a success by trying to move towards a higher (central) position. Unsolicited social climbing. Be wary."

with/from directing (14) comes mirroring (38)

social climbing includes letting other see something in you not there - you reflect 'them' and so get interpretted as if one of 'them'.

ewald · Nov 18, 2006

14.3
Being in a unique position to do something for someone, that others are not able to do.

These are some threads where there is something in the descriptions of the querents regarding the meaning of 14.3:
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=1480
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=2112
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=3336
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=496
I don't really see anything there that warrants the view that 14.3 is about self-sacrifice or not being stingy.

bruce_g · Nov 18, 2006

there’s a dollar in my pocket
someone’s hungry so
the dollar goes to feed
it ain’t what ya got
that makes you rich or poor
but that it meets a need

you can never own what ya have
unless it’s really yours
and if it is
ya never can be poor

mudpie · Nov 18, 2006

INteresting that today there was an article online about the man who has been a "secret Santa" for years, giving away over a million dollars in random bills to people who were in need. He was once broke, homeless, desperate, and went to eat in a diner, then claimed he had "lost" his wallet and couldn't pay. The waitress called the owner over who went up to the man, handed him a twenty, and said "I think you dropped this on the way in." a petty man could not do this
Years later, this man went back to the owner of the diner and handed him $20,000 .

Memorizing the I Ching. Hexagram 14. Ta Yu / Possession in Great Measure

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