An old, although new relationship

foic29 · Sep 13, 2006

Dear friends of the I-Ching,

i would really appreciate your help and advice.
My situation: 7 yeas ago i was together with a woman, and we loved each other a lot. But we split, i think the main reason were my interests for other women also.
I started a new relationship (which is over), she also did. She is still in this relationship (according to her rather unhappy), and is the mother of a little girl. I think mainly because of her daughter she wanted to try to stay together with the father of her daughter.
So, now i come into play: We met a several times the last few weeks - and the fire between us - not only sexually, but also the fire of heart and mind - started once again, to both our great surprise! We both are feeling quiet shaky, as you may could imagine...
Before i wanted to get to her any nearer i asked the I-Ching the following question:
"How good do we match as a loving couple, as lovers?"
For me this was a quiet "definite" question, with very strong emotions, after all these years and the fact, that we were already together in the past!
The answer was: 14 -> 64 (Changing lines 1/3)
Of course this answer means something to me, but the deeper i look, and the deeper i feel regarding that woman, the more questions arise, so:
I´m grateful for any advice, idea or thought you might share with me - thank you very much in advance!

With the kindest regards,

foic

rosada · Sep 13, 2006

Dear foic,
14 Possession in Great Measure follows Fellowship, so I see it as telling us that to have a friend is truly a wonderful possession. But a friend is not a lover so I think the I Ching is cautioning you that only if you consider this woman as a just a friend will you be able to keep the connection. Further 14.1 specifically states one should not have any relationship with what is harmful. If your friend is indeed living with the child's father, there are many obstacles to be overcome right there, and having anything to do with her under these circumstances would be harmful. I suspect you were wanting the I Ching to talk about the two of you in a sort of fantasy way, like, "IF there were no other people involved, then what would be our chances?" But the I Ching deals in reality, the here and now, and the fact she has a child and another relationship - happy or not - cannot be separated from the evaluation of two of you as a couple. So the I Ching is saying that as lovers there are many obstacles and if it is your intention that by being friends with your ex you will then become lovers, well in that case you should not have ANY relationship with her at all. Perhaps IC means only while she is living with her child's father, but perhaps it means period.

64. Before Completion.
This hexagram warns you that wonderful as the possibilities seem between the two of you, her current relationship has not been completed.

Bottomline, I think the IChing is telling you that even though there is genuine caring between the two of you, YOU ought not attempt to carry your vision accross the river from dreamland into reality. You'll only get your tail wet and nothing will further.

dobro p · Sep 14, 2006

""How good do we match as a loving couple, as lovers?"

The answer was: 14 -> 64 (Changing lines 1/3)"

You've got a great thing between you as a loving couple, but this isn't the time to move forward with the relationship. You should work really hard right now at avoiding any sort of harm in how you deal with this relationship, you should really conduct yourself according to your highest ideals right now. Overall, I'd say it's time to pledge your love for this woman, but not consummate the relationship yet.

willowfox · Sep 14, 2006

Hi,

"How good do we match as a loving couple, as lovers?"

hex 14.1 says that the relationship is still new, still young and that many obstacles lie ahead. So be very careful how you proceed, beaware of the dangers involved in this relationship, then there will be no problems.

hex 14.3 says you should not think of this woman as your own personal property, you should make a sacrifice for the moment, make no demands of her, she is still free to make her own decisions. Do this, then there will be no problems later on.

hex 64 says that there will be many problems in the beginning but the potential for success in the future is there. This is the beginning of a new cycle for you. At the moment the situation is very confusing and you don't know what to do for the best,and it is making you feel insecure. Therefore, decide exactly what you want from this new relationship and then act. Think very carefully before moving forward. Clarify your own feelings and emotions, and be very patient, wait. Bring order into your own life before getting to deep into this relationship. Never ever rush things, everything to do with this relationship must be taken very slowly, step by step.All will go well in the end. Becoming lovers can be successful.

rosada · Sep 14, 2006

Thinking about how 14.1 seems to so flatly tell you to leave it alone. Personally I've seen situations where friends of mine with kids were in terrible relationships and after getting a divorce they and the man and the children all went on to lead happy lives, but it doesn't seem like you can ever get the I Ching to admit that's possible.
Just now I asked, "what can one do when you've entered a relationship and you've got a child and you don't want to fix it, you just want out?"
I received 54.2>51. "A one-eyed man is able to see." This line speaks directly to such a circumstance and says that in the case of such disappointment one must not lose the inner light of loyalty. This inner seriousness leads to 51, a state of being where outer terrors "glance off harmlessly." Suck it up and it wont bother you? Pooey, it seems the I Ching just doesn't condone switching partners.

Trojina · Sep 14, 2006

rosada said:
Thinking about how 14.1 seems to so flatly tell you to leave it alone. .

Does it ?

dobro p · Sep 14, 2006

"Does it ?"

Not in my book, not at all. 14.1 doesn't say 'don't do it'; it says 'being really sure you do no harm is without fault or blame; this'll be difficult, but if you manage it, the result will be without fault or blame as well'.

dobro p · Sep 14, 2006

"Pooey, it seems the I Ching just doesn't condone switching partners."

It might seem that way to you, Rosada, but different decisions that people make are either useful or counterproductive depending on where they're coming from, where they're at, and what they need to get to where they need to be. This might translate as staying in a relationship, or it might mean getting out of a relationship, it depends.

Also, about the reading you've given, it seems to be thumbs down on the relationship foic's enquiring about, but I don't think you can justify that if you look solely at 14.1.3>64. I think, given the 64 relating hex, that there's an element of 'not yet' about the relationship; however, given the conditions stated in 14.1 and 14.3, and given the overall *very* positive picture of Hex 14 generally, the relationship has definite possibilities. So, for the reading you've given foic, I'd say the Rosada content outweighed the Yi content. :-D

rosada · Sep 14, 2006

Okay, well I've reviewed my original take and I do think there are somethings I was overlooking. However, I still don't think these hexagrams are encouraging a romance.

First, the question is kinda awkward, "How good do we match as a loving couple, as lovers?"

Hexagram 14. "Supreme success" certainly sounds positive, but positive for what? For being friends? For being lovers? For being a long term couple? ( Or just for being a "good match" in that they both share a tendancy to be unfaithful to their partners?)

Line 14.1
No relationship with what is harmful;
There is no blame in this.

I think this says he should tell his friend that they cannot be lovers while she is still with her daughter's father, and she will not blame him for this. Indeed, based on their history together, perhaps they will discover they make a better friends than lovers.

If one remains conscious of the difficulty,
One remains free of blame.

I see this as saying that if they agree not to pursue an affair, and remain conscious of the temptation and act in away to avoid temptation, they can have a guilt free blameless friendship.
(and here I am changing my original reading. I had first thought the I Ching was saying flat out "No relationship" period, but I actually neglected to see these last two lines. My Wilhelm book has the first lines on one page and these two on the next page. Oops.)

14.3
A prince offers it to the Son of Heaven.
A petty man cannot do this.

I see it as acknowledging that this is a loving couple, BUT if this love manefested in them being lovers rather than friends, it would not be good for the happiness of the people she has vowed to care for, and so I read the IC as saying their love should not be used for their personal pleasure, but rather offered up to the greater good, ie. if they really love each other they shouldn't be using their love to break up her child's home, but rather to heal her home. If he so loves her, let him renounce his passion, vow to be the best friend her husband ever had, see her in his dreams.

64.
Before Completion. Success
But if the little fox, after nearly completing the crossing,
Gets his tail in the water,
There is nothing that would further.

This could be seen to discribing his situation 7 years ago: they were together then, but they didn't make it to the finish line. I wonder if the I Ching is saying this is still a part of their energy pattern as a couple today? That their potential as lovers tends to remain unfulfilled now as it was then. Anyway, his question was "How good do we match as a loving couple?" not "What is the potential if I pursue this as a romance?" I think the I Ching is saying as a loving couple(friends) they could have a future if they are careful not to get their tails wet giving into the temptation to be lovers.

mudpie · Sep 15, 2006

It always kills me when I see/hear that someone gets a positive response from yi and some twist it like a pretzel, almost as if to avoid acknowledging what the reading actually says, because details in the story conflict with the way things "should" be (according to the reader.) I have seen this happen a lot. In the same way that many don't like to give "bad news," do we not like to acknowledge auspicious readings?

Hex 14 is one of the most aupicious omens in the whole yi, if not THEE most auspicious. I just don't agree, with all due respect, Rosada, that the reading unto itself is making a reference to any previous commitments of the two, NOR that it is saying that yes, a friendship is good, but not "lovers."
14.1 mentions "no relationship with what is harmful" and it also denotes "no blame."

My feeling was that this response was saying that the match as a loving couple is one that has a great deal of love, plain and simple. Love is a great possession. BUt the answer is definitely addressing the NOW. These two people have a great possession in each other. BUt it is just the way things are now....no mistake has been made at this early stage. There is no blame.

64 , in my view, simply says that the story ain't over yet. The "love story" is not over, it continues from the past (like in The Notebook!) and the ENTIRE story is not over yet. There are more chapters to come.

Where they go from here is another issue. More questions need to be asked. A great LOve between two people does not necessarily imply a happy ever after, nor does it even imply they will end up together, or "should" end up together. They may or they may not. I really do not feel the YI makes value judgements, esp not the kinds of values we might often try to inject into it.

BTW, In the era of "courtly love," it was commonplace and well accepted that couples became lovers when the woman was very married to someone else. And the love affairs were often written about in poetry, songs were written in adoration of the beloved woman.
I think it is a mistake to try to inject values, at least values of specific cultures/times, into the yi. If a horse thief asked the Yi about the most auspcious timing for stealing his next horse, I am of the mind that the Yi would oblige him with the needed guidance, and leave the matters of morality/ conscience, if there is any, to the thief.

mudpie · Sep 15, 2006

Didnt read that last post of rosada's until ever i sent mine.....sorry.......but yeah, there is difficulty to be conscious of......I still don't think it implies a value on maintaining the marriage..or NOT. just that there is difficulties to be mindful of. and not to be petty....

bruce_g · Sep 15, 2006

Hi Listener,

First, thanks for clarifying what you had previously referred to as value judgments. In the way you have used it here, I tend to agree with you, but with a caveat. Imo, value judgments is largely what Yi speaks to in us. What it doesn’t do, or does in only rare cases, is to tell us what values to uphold and which to put down. We reflect on our own values, and our judgments likewise are our own. The rare cases have to do not so much with what we do but the result of what we do. So, for example, hex. 34 says: “The noble one will not tread a path without ritual.” Because to tread a path without ritual (during the time of 34) leads to excessive yang, and the result of that leads to distress and remorse. So I believe there are times when Yi is strong in imparting value judgments to us. But even then, it is up to us and our own value judgments to make the call.

That’s what makes interpreting these types of questions/readings tricky. It is up to the one who received the reading to evaluate their own values, and to make those judgment calls for themselves.

For the most part, I agree with the interpretations given here, including your input to it. 14 holds more potential than can be discerned at this time, but it holds great potential for the future. Just what potentials those are, I don't believe anyone can say with certainty.

mudpie · Sep 15, 2006

Hi Bruce,
I don't know if that's "value judgement" that the Yi imparts with such a line as "the noble one will not tread a path without ritual..." And I am not sure it speaks to our values either, as much as it gives unfailingly nonjudgemental advice.

If someone asked about murdering their spouse (just using that because it something most evryone would have a value judgement against!) would the Yi answer the question with advice about how to proceed, or would it start to lecture the asker about the evil of the action? "the noble one will not tread a path without ritual" could mean many things to the asker, but the concrete dispassionate advice seems to be to have a plan, and to be cautious......wouldnt you say? It is not concerned with value, per se.

OR would it speak to the value according to the person asking? Maybe that's what you mean. If a person was feeling very guilty for contemplating an action, maybe the Yi would reflect that guilt and warn of the consequences

BUt when it comes to love....and I guess to lots of other thngs, sometimes what is RIGHT looks wrong to commonly held values. Morality, or what is perceived as morality, can be at odds with authenticity, with the Tao, if you will. (Think of Charles and Camilla. Katherine hepburn and spencer tracy.) Thats' why I don't see the Yi as having "value judgements" because it is presumably a Guide in realms not governed by morality. The larger dispassionate picture. It does seem to like kindness though. A supreme virtue perhaps

bruce_g · Sep 15, 2006

Hi again, Listener,

No one here has kicked against the moral issue you present more than I. It irks me when cultural proclivates are projected into Yi's meanings. Life is always messier than that, unless one chooses to live in a chicken coop.

I do think we each tend to push the word "values" into a, erm, different value

, but we seem to agree that it is the values of querent which are ultimately challanged. And of course many would rather avoid having to decide for themselves. Much easier for someone to tell them what's right or wrong.

rosada · Sep 15, 2006

Trying to get a better handle on this question, I tried applying it to other people.

Examples:
How do Romeo and Julliet match as a loving couple, as lovers? Hex 52.6 -15.

How about JFK and Jackie? 27.1>23.

Bill and Hilary? 15 unchanging.

dobro p · Sep 15, 2006

"Bill and Hilary? 15 unchanging."

Hilary, you didn't tell us about this Bill guy. Who is he? Is he as American as his name sounds? Where'd you meet? Enquiring minds yearn for information...

autumn · Sep 15, 2006

'Does the Yi impart its values into an answer', is somewhat similar to asking, 'Does the Yi answer questions about other people/things that we have no right to know about'.Does it just answer the question like a machine, or is it intelligent? Does it guide?

In my experience, each is not necessarily mutually exclusive. If it can answer with both a statement of values and as a direct response to the question, then it will. If it cannot do both, then there is no telling how it will choose to answer. But- in my experience, it is intelligent. It does choose. It isn't a machine. It does, without any doubt in my mind, impart values.

The problem is in our understanding of values. The highest path might deviate from the cultural expectation, (for example- some people probably should get divorced even though we value keeping marriages together in our culture) and the reason why it might is because every person must experience their highest path subjectively. We can't know what the "highest", most loving, most in line with one's true nature, path is in any given circumstance.

bruce_g · Sep 15, 2006

autumn said:
'Does the Yi impart its values into an answer', is somewhat similar to asking, 'Does the Yi answer questions about other people/things that we have no right to know about'.Does it just answer the question like a machine, or is it intelligent? Does it guide?

In my experience, each is not necessarily mutually exclusive. If it can answer with both a statement of values and as a direct response to the question, then it will. If it cannot do both, then there is no telling how it will choose to answer. But- in my experience, it is intelligent. It does choose. It isn't a machine. It does, without any doubt in my mind, impart values.

The problem is in our understanding of values. The highest path might deviate from the cultural expectation, (for example- some people probably should get divorced even though we value keeping marriages together in our culture) and the reason why it might is because every person must experience their highest path subjectively. We can't know what the "highest", most loving, most in line with one's true nature, path is in any given circumstance.

Well said!

bruce_g · Sep 15, 2006

mm, only I'm unsure of this statement:

"We can't know what the "highest", most loving, most in line with one's true nature, path is in any given circumstance."

I think we can, and that there are many roads to tapping this information in ourselves.

autumn · Sep 15, 2006

We= outside observers. Outside observers may not know whether a choice someone made was made in that person's own highest good. (I don't believe, just my own personal belief, there's a whole lot of deviation between what looks like the right choice and the subjective 'right' choice, but I do believe there are times there is deviation)

Subjectively, yes, we can know our own highest path, and we must, this is the whole purpose of our lives.

Does that make a difference?

bruce_g · Sep 15, 2006

autumn said:
We= outside observers. Outside observers may not know whether a choice someone made was made in that person's own highest good. (I don't believe, just my own personal belief, there's a whole lot of deviation between what looks like the right choice and the subjective 'right' choice, but I do believe there are times there is deviation)

Subjectively, yes, we can know our own highest path, and we must, this is the whole purpose of our lives.

Does that make a difference?

Outside observers as in interpreters? If so then yes. I don't think an interpreter can know for sure what Yi is speaking to or "into" the querent, but a good interpreter can often point in the right direction, as a road sign would, and in a language that the querent or sitter can easily understand, without veering too far from the original meaning.

That said, I also think there may be times when a reader is so well tuned into the Dao of the reading that it is by revelation that they speak. But that is always danergous, as the ego is a skilled thief.

mudpie · Sep 15, 2006

***

sometimes what is RIGHT looks wrong to commonly held values. Morality, or what is perceived as morality, can be at odds with authenticity, with the Tao, if you will.

The highest path might deviate from the cultural expectation, (for example- some people probably should get divorced even though we value keeping marriages together in our culture) and the reason why it might is because every person must experience their highest path subjectively.

I think we say the same thing, altho you may say it better. Of course the YI is intelligent, not a machine....but intelligence has nothing to do with values. The guidance is astute.
Hey look what it says about JFK? It doesnt say he was "wrong" to cheat......it says 27.1 "wow, you fool, you had this beautiful classy woman and you still were not satisfied"
; )

rosada · Sep 15, 2006

LOL, Listener, I like your's better. I also saw 27.1 as refering to the jealousy that caused someone to assassinate JFK, and that death of course split them apart. Perhaps we are seeing how the energies of a couple can play out on a variety of levels in the life of the partnership.
I was reading about 15. for the Clintons. According to "Ruling Lines" the negative side to 15.Modesty: "Deceptive practices will quickly embarrass you." (!)
All this lead me to think about foic getting 14.1.3>64. Like 14. is said to mean "Supreme Success", but I think we have to consider why the image of the Sun over the Earth would indicate this. Well, the Sun over the Earth suggests everyone can see you. But in a situation where secrecy might be valued - i.e. a secret romance - 14 meaning "public visability" might not mean "Supreme Success" at all! It might just as fittingly interpreted as a warning that the couple will attract attention. Look right here. Look how much attention their situation has gotten just with all of us! Gee, foic, we've never heard back from you...

bruce_g · Sep 16, 2006

"Intelligence has nothing to do with values."

That’s a thought provoking comment, and after giving thought to it I can not agree with the statement. An intelligent guide teaches innumerable values. He teaches the young hunter the ways of the forest and of the young hunter’s quarry, and in doing so imparts values of sustaining the life of his family. A math teacher imparts the values of numbers and the division of the whole into calculable parts. An intelligent teacher imparts the values of what he/she teaches.

Values can be taught on different layers or levels, and I think this is where our views of values split. Yi Jing teaches universal values based on observable natural laws, easily seen in trigrams. It teaches the value of endurance, of patience and perseverance, it teaches the value of being true to your truth, and of understanding higher and lower, light and dark energies in ourselves. Even the DDJ imparts values, but those same values can be misconstrued to say things that are merely projected into it, and that’s fine so long as we can differentiate its universal values from our subjective application of those values.

It’s when the unintelligent impose shallow and narrow values that we run into the troubles of dogma and a master/slave relationship to the laws of our own beliefs.

Even socially accepted values are not ignored by the Yi. If, for example, we are to experience hex.13 with those we share our social structure with, the Yi will speak to fitting with that particular social group: the values of social order.

The values associated with 37 are clearly defined. How and when that definition is applied is where things can get messy, but the general hierarchy of 37 is quite clear. That expresses values.

Guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one, Listener.

mudpie · Sep 16, 2006

I dont disagree about universal "values"...i might not use the word "value" to name it though. GUess my talk of vlaues had more to do with judgement and perceived "morality" and all the boxes we create as human beings to decipher "right" from "wrong," ...good from bad. I thnk the I ching is in a realm higher than, i.e.transcending, those boxes, is all I was saying.

also ......the most intelligent teachers dont impart values, (in my opinion!) They lead, guide, encourage the young fool to think for him/herself......even dare them to step beyond "values" and have the courage to be free in thought/behavior.

but we can agree to disagree, even tho semantics is sometimes just a game and at the heart I dont think we differ too much ; )

bruce_g · Sep 16, 2006

listener said:
I dont disagree about universal "values"...i might not use the word "value" to name it though. GUess my talk of vlaues had more to do with judgement and perceived "morality" and all the boxes we create as human beings to decipher "right" from "wrong," ...good from bad. I thnk the I ching is in a realm higher than, i.e.transcending, those boxes, is all I was saying.

also ......the most intelligent teachers dont impart values, (in my opinion!) They lead, guide, encourage the young fool to think for him/herself......even dare them to step beyond "values" and have the courage to be free in thought/behavior.

but we can agree to disagree, even tho semantics is sometimes just a game and at the heart I dont think we differ too much ; )

Hi Listener,

If this was something I was certain of I wouldn’t be inclined to debate the subject with you. It’s something I’ve often thought about, and I’m a little undecided exactly how I see it. I think the differences of what we have each presented is more than semantics though. At least in my head the two views are different. This statement for example:

“the most intelligent teachers don’t impart values, (in my opinion!) They lead, guide, encourage the young fool to think for him/herself......even dare them to step beyond "values" and have the courage to be free in thought/behavior.”

That’s a big pill to swallow whole. I agree that the most intelligent teachers (i.e. Yi) encourage the fool to think for him/herself, and dare them to step beyond convention. But that in no way says the teacher imparts no values or sense of values to the student. What about the taught value in hex 4 of the correct attitude of the student toward the teacher? For example. Or, the value of not asking further questions without due consideration to the first answer? These are lessons in values.

“Universal” is one of those words that can get muddled, such as saying: Yi teaches only universal values. Is teaching social decorum a universal value or a social value? Isn’t that a value taught by the Yi? What values are taught in, say, hex 33? Every hexagram, imo, teaches certain values.

All that said (remember, I’m debating all this in my own head as well as with you), ultimate intelligence exceeds all things dualistic. To which I ask, what do we do in the meantime, while we are still living in a dualistic world?

mudpie · Sep 16, 2006

Bruce, I think where we differ is semantics, because we are using the word 'value' in different ways. The tribute to Hilary's dad, coincidentally, says what I am trying so feebly to say here.......that one has no right to impose judgement ( value system) on another, and that an individual heart can be trusted to guide one's own way.

What about the taught value in hex 4 of the correct attitude of the student toward the teacher? For example. Or, the value of not asking further questions without due consideration to the first answer? These are lessons in values.

Are those values? Or just the Way things are.

See,here is where the words are muddying things. My whole original post was to say that we ought not to inject our personal value system/value judgement into the Yi. Some people have said : THe Yi doesnt like it when you ask about things not your business.........OR......The Yi is in favor of marriages staying intact.....and all I meant was to caution about inserting personal values into the responses.

An intelligent teacher who talks to kids about sex, for instance, will not say
something like "DON"T have sex because sex outside of marriage is wrong."
Even though they may feel that way. It isnt fair to the kids.
A very smart teacher will instead initiate , perhaps, a conversation to explore what teens look for and want in a relationship, what is impt for them (encouraging the formation of personal values) and then discuss sex in light of moving them towrds the goal or away from it...........in other words, encourage them to think and make choices, but not to impart a value system to them.

In short a "value" as I see it is about right/wrong and good/bad, whereas intelligent guidance is about the wisest way to navigate a landscape.

I do not listen well to the Teacher/Yi because it is the "proper" attitude to have towrds my teacher, I listen well because I want to understand the advice, and I want to get from POint A to Point B. It is not a value, it is the path of least resistance. The Yi informs me of this common sense, but it really doesnt care if I listen or not, it will just stop answering. He is not teaching me about the value of listening so much as simply letting me learn that if I dont listen, I dont hear. common sense.

You never really answered the question above posed rhetorically, but that might clarify the issue of value:
Would the yi advise the horse thief about how to effectively steal a horse or lecture him about the behavior of stealing?
Would the Yi tell me if tonight is a good time to murder my spouse, or would it lecture me instead about the evils of murder?

Does the Tao have values? In my book, no, thats the beauty of the Tao. it is formless..............."unconcerned with friends and enemies, good and harm, honor and disgrace. This therefore is the highest state of man"

I also am wrestling with this in my head, so even if i play one side of the fence, I am looking at th other ... :bows:

bruce_g · Sep 16, 2006

listener said:
Would the yi advise the horse thief about how to effectively steal a horse or lecture him about the behavior of stealing?
Would the Yi tell me if tonight is a good time to murder my spouse, or would it lecture me instead about the evils of murder?

Does the Tao have values? In my book, no, thats the beauty of the Tao. it is formless..............."unconcerned with friends and enemies, good and harm, honor and disgrace. This therefore is the highest state of man"

There was a thread on this very question some time ago. Not surprisingly there were varied opinions.

I certainly believe the Yi would seek to correct the action of the potential murderer. With the thief, I guess it depends if his family was starving, but more than likely there's a better way than stealing to feed his family. It might take some humbling, such as 41 or 15 might offer? These are good examples, imo, as to whether Yi has values (of the human sort) or not. So, I don't know that Yi would lecture him on the evils of murder, but I believe Yi would promote a more level headed approach to dealing with his wife.

I had this conversation with an old friend once. I asked him if Yi would advise Hitler how to win his war. His answer was interesting. He said, Hitler would not be able to understand the underlying principles of Yi's answer, and would probably make the answer fit to meet his own ends. And, that someone like Hitler wouldn't be open enough to accept Yi's advice to change his ways. He didn't listen to his own generals, why would he follow the advise given from some old book, even if he did ask Yi for an answer? So I guess the same would go for the thief or murderer.

It seems foreign for me to imagine Yi wouldn't attempt to steer someone away from regretful actions of any kind. I dunno, is that upholding principles and values?

Tao is formless, yes, and that’s why I mentioned ultimate wisdom or intelligence as being non-dualistic. But while Yi alludes to that sublime wholeness, it answers dualistic questions using dualistic images and metaphors. And in that, it sure seems there are ethics and principles involved (trying to avoid that troublesome “values” word).

bruce_g · Sep 17, 2006

Listener,

There’s a story you may have already heard. I heard it again last night and thought it may fit here.

A young student, studying under his guru’s tutelage, was happily walking down the street, contemplating the master’s recent lesson: all is God. As he walked, an elephant turned the corner and was heading toward him. The young man thought, “I am God, the elephant is God. Will God harm God?” The elephant trainer sitting on the elephant’s massive head shouted, “Get out of the way, you fool!” But the enlightened young man kept repeating, “I am God. The elephant is God. Will God harm God?” And with that, the elephant picked him up with his trunk and threw him hard to the curb. The young man limped his way back to his guru’s hut. When the master saw him he asked, “What happened to you??” The young man told him his story. “Well”, said the guru, “why didn’t you listen to God when he told you to get out of the way?”

mudpie · Sep 17, 2006

Good one! I never heard that. Today I was thinking of the one I know you mustve heard about the man and his guru master.....but I cant remember the details.....!! I know the story in my head, but I'd mess up the details, its one of those zen stories we have all heard......but of course slanted to my argument ; ) .....anyway, i was thinking of it and said to myself I should write that to bruce...so we were thinking synchronistically today.

GEE, I wonder where the founder of this feast is......foic.......whatever is happening with his situation!?

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