Memorizing the I Ching Hexagram 7. the Army

rosada · Sep 13, 2006

7. Shih / The Army

THE JUDGEMENT
THE ARMY. The army needs perseverance
And a strong man.
Good fortune without blame.

ewald · Sep 13, 2006

The character 丈, that Wilhelm has here translated as "strong," actually means "elder."

cesca · Sep 13, 2006

ewald said:
The character 丈, that Wilhelm has here translated as "strong," actually means "elder."

Now THAT is AWESOME. It sheds a whole new light on it -- not just a strongarm, but someone with experience and wisdom.

ewald · Sep 13, 2006

Indeed.

The same character 丈 is also in 17.2 and 17.3. There it makes more sense too, contrasting an "elder man" (instead of a "strong man") to a "little child."

toganm · Sep 13, 2006

On the other hand, the judgment normally gives hint to the ruler line of the hexagram. Line 2 is the ruler of the hexagram. It is central (constancy) and strong (yang).

Best wishes
Togan

Trojina · Sep 13, 2006

If there was a hexagram to indicate school/college this would be it maybe. Asking about classes I'm taking 7 keeps coming up. 4 was being open to learning, 7 can be the regimentation of organised learning perhaps ?

bruce_g · Sep 14, 2006

trojan said:
If there was a hexagram to indicate school/college this would be it maybe. Asking about classes I'm taking 7 keeps coming up. 4 was being open to learning, 7 can be the regimentation of organised learning perhaps ?

I like the idea of 7 as formal schooling and training. During four years active duty in the navy, there was never a time I wasn't involved with futher advanced training in something or other. Same with college? I think it's a great image, Trojan.

dobro p · Sep 14, 2006

"7 can be the regimentation of organised learning perhaps ?"

7 can be organized, well-guided force applied to anything. Even learning lol.

lightofreason · Sep 14, 2006

trojan said:
If there was a hexagram to indicate school/college this would be it maybe. Asking about classes I'm taking 7 keeps coming up. 4 was being open to learning, 7 can be the regimentation of organised learning perhaps ?

07 : with/from containment comes dualmindedness (absolute trust in another/others)

Using the binary sequence, 4 and 7 share the same space, the only difference being the top line and so 07 is unconditional, 04 conditional (particular).

The overall focus is on socialisation, 07 through unformity, 04 through education through socialisation and so covers issues of putting on a mask. (as compared to 04s opposite. 49, that reveals what is behind the mask)

Social hierarchy is manifest in 07, in 04 cover issues of adolescence in this socialisation focus.

In 07 the uniformity is imposed from the outside, in 07s opposite the 'sameness' comes from the inside where we linkup with others of likemind (13)

The contractive bounding nature of water focuses on issues of protection, security seeking etc and so to keep something 'in' or 'out'. This focus elicits the emotion of rejection/rejecting (something covered in 04 re approaching the teacher etc)

WITHIN the octet of water, 07 is 'opposite' to 06, 04 to 47. (47 covers enforced enclosure be it by choice or not)

From the XOR material the infrastructure for 07 is described by analogy to 41 - and so a focus on concentration, distillation (reflecting the 'purity' of the uniformity etc - army green 'rules')

The source of nourishment for 07 is described by analogy to 39 with its focus on obstructing, on standing up to the flow as well as bypassing obstructions through going with the flow.

From the OUTSIDE the look of 07 can be described by analogy to hex 26 and the sense of 'holding firm'

On the INSIDE the look of 07 can be described by analogy to hex 45 - a focus on a congregation, a gathering of 'like minded' associated with some authorative figure (god, general etc)

etc etc

Chris.

cesca · Sep 14, 2006

ewald said:
Indeed.
The same character 丈 is also in 17.2 and 17.3. There it makes more sense too, contrasting an "elder man" (instead of a "strong man") to a "little child."

I have it in my notes for 17.2 and 17.3 as 'mature man'. But 'elder' brings it to life.

cesca · Sep 14, 2006

trojan said:
If there was a hexagram to indicate school/college this would be it maybe. Asking about classes I'm taking 7 keeps coming up. 4 was being open to learning, 7 can be the regimentation of organised learning perhaps ?

Good one. I've never made this connection before.

The military is where a lot of men (and possibly women too) learn to be adults, which includes discipline and being able to be a team player. And all monarchs have to have military training as part of their 'job training', even today.

This take on it gives more meaning to the sequence 6-7-8 -- being able to lead an army is a step toward being able to lead an empire (even if it's a personal/internal army and a personal/internal empire).

rosada · Sep 14, 2006

The Image

THE IMAGE

In the middle of the earth is water
The image of THE ARMY.
Thus the superior man increases his masses
By generosity toward the people.

RindaR · Sep 15, 2006

Water is one of the critical supplies an army needs. Is the wisdom-strength of this superior person likened to water here? Is this saying the superior person "waters" the people around him... or rather is passive, letting others drink from his wisdom?

Rinda

rosada · Sep 15, 2006

Interesting observation, Rinda! Now that you mention it, this suggests to me also that what the man gives, determines the sort of masses he gathers around him.

rosada · Sep 15, 2006

Hex 7.1

7.1
An army must set forth in proper order.
If the order is not good, misfortune threatens.

rosada · Sep 15, 2006

If you'll indulge me in a rambling monolog here, I maybe able to get my thoughts out. Trying to compose a well reasoned arguement takes me all morning and even then I'm not sure I make sence so....random thoughts:
What is the purpose of the I Ching, anyway? I'm seeing it as a guidebook on how to manefest one's intentions, how to create and live the life you've imagined. If this is so, then it seems I Ching is telling us we must first have a clear sence of just what our intention is. Having this clear sence is not as simple as it first sounds. We start out saying, "I want to be healthy and happy" but then choices come up, consequences. If I eat the cake now I am happy, but tomorrow when I check the scales I am not healthy. So how do we live with these 6.Conflicting urges? I think 7. is where we start being aware of things having relative value and the importance of self discipline and our ability to conciously put our lives and values in "proper order."
There's a book out, Smart Couples Finish Rich, in which the author suggests a couple separately write out their top five values and then compare lists. This is a real eye opener of an exercise. People just don't have the same values! One person may say health and living debt free are their main goals and the partner could put "Not slashing my wrists" at the head of the list. So obviously such different needs are going to prompt very different behavior. Before such a couple can set forth, they are going to need to get their priorities streight. Likewise, in our own inner selves we need to know if cake today trumps weight tomorrow.

rosada · Sep 15, 2006

Interupted by a phone call...
Anyway, I also find that our values change. The pledges of "Death Before Dishonor!" in our youth can be greatly tempered by the experiences of age. Perhaps this is why The Army needs an elder to lead it.

lightofreason · Sep 15, 2006

rosada said:
7.1
An army must set forth in proper order.
If the order is not good, misfortune threatens.

with/from uniforming comes approaching/defering

touches on issues of the high deferring to the low, the low allowed to approach the high. Very 'unmilitary' conduct or more so 'unnatural' for a hierarchy.

IC+ 7 Line 1
"An army emerging from the law [created by], if allowed to obstruct virtue (natural law) is dangerous."

jte · Sep 16, 2006

I think that one thing (out of many possibilities) that this line can refer to is synchronicities. In this case, specifically synchronicities that may occur in your environment when you first think of or decide to do something. The "good order" reflects postive synchronicities, which imply a successful action (or at least an action with no immediate impediments). Conversely, negative or ominous synchronicities imply a negative auspice for your action.

Just one meaning (out of many possible ones) that the line may have, depending on the specific question asked, circumstances, etc.

- Jeff

lightofreason · Sep 16, 2006

lightofreason said:
IC+ 7 Line 1
"An army emerging from the law [created by], if allowed to obstruct virtue (natural law) is dangerous."

This includes the creation of an army that is never disbanded. Thus the 'natural law' is to create an army when needed and then disband it - people go back to their normal lives. Issues come when the army is created on a permanent basis (human law) where the army can form its own little world, build it, and become a determinator of law, forign policy, home policy etc - A police force is all that is needed for local issues and so there is no need for a full time army without justification (but then the justification can come for politicians in need of the presence of the army to aid in imposing their will!)

Chris.

hilary · Sep 16, 2006

Harking back a bit...

rosada said:
it seems I Ching is telling us we must first have a clear sense of just what our intention is. Having this clear sense is not as simple as it first sounds. We start out saying, "I want to be healthy and happy" but then choices come up, consequences. If I eat the cake now I am happy, but tomorrow when I check the scales I am not healthy. So how do we live with these 6.Conflicting urges? I think 7. is where we start being aware of things having relative value and the importance of self discipline and our ability to conciously put our lives and values in "proper order."

This makes me think of Hexagram 40 as much as 7: if you have somewhere to go, go there already (and don't tangle yourself up in a net of 'shoulds' and 'oughts' until you fall flat on your face). 7's 'grow up, who do you think is in charge?' message seems closely related. And oh look, there's just one line separating the two. Let's get back to this when we reach it...

7.1 with subtle shifts of translation can be read to say that the order/ discipline/ pitchpipes are a good thing, or that they are themselves a threat.
'The army goes forth using rules/pitchpipes'
- so far, so fairly unambiguous, but then -
否臧凶
Either 'it negates their strength/skills: pitfall'
or 'without such strength/skills: pitfall'

The second reading or versions of it is the majority view - starting with the authors of the Xiaoxiang, no less, who said 'forgetting the rules: misfortune.' But still, I find the first one more natural. 否is the name of hexagram 12, no less. Does it ever just mean 'without'?

Here's my pet compromise:
'The army marches out using pitchpipes.
At odds with the strength of the army: pitfall.'
In other words, if the rules and rhythms imposed block the expression of natural strength, you're in trouble. (Limited experience suggests that may be a real and present danger with this line.) This seems like an important thing to know when you're at the beginning of forming an inner or outer army.

ewald · Sep 16, 2006

Indeed, 臧 wouldn't have been used if "without" would have been meant, as 旡 would have been there in that case.

I changed my translation of the second part of 7.1, 否臧凶, several times.

LINDICT has for 臧否 good or bad (the characters have switched order). So one might translate 否臧凶 with something like "bad or good, misfortune." Whether things go well or not, there will be some form of misfortune. At least someone's going to get hurt or killed in a war. However, I left this way of translating 7.1.

I have as possible meanings of 臧, good, right, fine, excellent / servant, slave / bribe / handle, deal with / command.
As 7.1 seems to be about following rules, orders or discipline, the meanings servant, slave and command are options here, in my view. With 否 meaning obstruct, this is in my opinion about obstructing the command, going against orders.

The army goes out according to discipline.
Obstructing the command brings misfortune.

The army needs soldiers that follow orders. Not following orders might bring the army into trouble, and may get you executed.

hilary · Sep 16, 2006

Yes, a lot depends on 臧, too. The etymology suggests a meaning of military strength specifically (slaves, weapons...), but in usage it seems simpler. Not that it appears again in the Zhouyi, but it does in the Songs, where it seems to mean 'good' in general, and especially in the sense of being in good order.

In 193 things are not 臧 : the world is disordered (a solar eclipse was the sign of this). In 195 there is 臧 counsel; in 211 the fields, yielding an excellent harvest, are 臧. In 217 people feel things are 臧 when they see the king. In 220 those who are so drunk they're doing things they will (or should) regret tomorrow are not 臧, and in 297 all those plump and glossy horses are 臧 .

So Ewald's translation seems very 臧 , but the idea that the pitchpipes themselves might be contrary to good order also seems possible.

rosada · Sep 16, 2006

In a couple of hours I am going to come back with a special dedication. I posted my plan a few days ago at the end of hex.6, in case anyone missed it. I hope folks will raise a cup of coffee with me here shortly as we toast Hilary's dad.

rosada · Sep 16, 2006

Dedication

As every great work deserves a dedication, and the I Ching repeatedly encourages us to remember the ancestors, I feel it is appropriate we dedicate this, our living I Ching group creation, to the memory of Hilary's father.

FOR MIKE TEAGUE
A strong elder and teacher of every subject from rugby to the classics.
His down to earth honesty epitomizes the spirit of 7.2.
His belief that no man should judge another's path and ultimately each man's own heart can guide him serves as an inspiration to us all.

hilary · Sep 16, 2006

Thank you, Rosada, very much.

If you don't have coffee to hand, Calvados, retsina, homemade elderberry wine or whatever will do fine. (I know everyone has a stock of 'whatever'.)

(Only edited, btw, to insert his surname.)

bruce_g · Sep 16, 2006

Am a bit lost in this, but I’ll raise a bottle of iced green tea to Hilary’s pops!

And while I’m at it, here’s to my pops, who passed over only a couple of months following Mr. Teagues passing!

And here’s to Chris’ mom, while we’re at it!

May they all be jammin’ in Paradise!

hilary · Sep 16, 2006

There's a banjo there for him, right? And a string bass?

bruce_g · Sep 16, 2006

Darlin, I think at least for awhile there's anything his heart desires. But most of all his heart, they're hearts, are with you. :hug:

rosada · Sep 17, 2006

Gosh, just realized I never actually posted the words for 7.2. Guess I better do that now and make today 7.2....starting off in good order is not as easy as it looks.

Memorizing the I Ching Hexagram 7. the Army

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