Comments on: Exposing the Image?

By: Recent Links Tagged With "hexagram" - JabberTags

Recent Links Tagged With "hexagram" - JabberTags — Tue, 02 Dec 2008 00:18:52 +0000

[...] Vector Set #1 Saved by dietervb on Tue 18-11-2008 Module 5 Saved by wdevauld on Wed 12-11-2008 Exposing the Image? Saved by kikiro123 on Tue 11-11-2008 LP Review: Hexagram-Rhymes for the Hated Saved by cynomyso [...]

By: proserpine

proserpine — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 10:22:57 +0000

Mabye this should be separate form this conversation.Luis, I saw above you mentioned the newer I Ching interpretation by Anthony *and* Moog.
As I said I dont have it. I’d like to know more about it though–at first i was interested to buy it–but since I have a few of Anthony’s books I wanted to at least look at the newer one first–but I never see it except on Amazon, with no description.
If you or anyone knows it even enough to describe strengths and weaknesses, and/or differences than the one I have, would you be kind enough to tell me about it?
Thanks

By: proserpine

proserpine — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 05:26:32 +0000

I’m not sure what you’re all talking about(not being sarcastic)
The inferior/superior thing always seemed pretty clear.
Isn’t it always that the “superior man” is one who does his/her best, and follows the Way.
When some texts were translated, there was no ‘he or she’ in use in the English language proper.”He” and “man”or “men”, like the word “mankind” not humanity were always used– not to be sexist per se(though it *can* seem to exclude a whole lot of us) but was just the proper terminology of the time.
I have to say I enjoy reading most translations,regardless. I have to admit,I’ve seen where Confuciius might be considered sexist.

By: proserpine

proserpine — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 05:18:44 +0000

I agree, Luis, except I wouldn’t say reading Anthony’s [I don't have the more recent book by Anthony and Moog] interpretation is ‘ease of use’ so much that attracts people–though I guess it might be to some(?)
I like the idea of a translator or interpreter who has has experience with what they’re interpreting–Sam Reifler did too.
I wouldn’t read Anthony’s (or Reifler’s ) book to the exclsuion of others, but as she herself said the book is her collected notes to go *with* the Wilhelm Baynes book.
I actually liked it, because it seemed to be more spiritually oriented than some interpretations, but more because she described what I also had experienced(to a lesser degree) in yrs of reading the I Ching.

By: Luis Andrade

Luis Andrade — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 00:28:43 +0000

That was a nice comment, Glen.

By: Hilary

Hilary — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 23:05:26 +0000

That sounds like interesting reading – thanks.

By: Glenroy Wolfsen

Glenroy Wolfsen — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:18:00 +0000

This whole discussion is very interesting. I have my own opinions but rather than sharing at this point – I thought I would mention a book that has interested me regarding the Images and the Analects. I set aside just for the sake of sharing this book the issue(s) of how the images related to Confucius himself and/or to his thought in general. Lets assume the images are representative of Confucian thought to enough of a degree to offer that perspective as a layer within the YiJing text. Thomas Cleary took that approach in “The Essential Confucius” where each hexagram is listed with ONLY the image text on the left-hand page and appropriate passages from the Analacts on the right. He attempts to organize the aphoristic mostly unrelated Analects passages through the Hexagram Image “themes.” Then at the end of the book in his notes he has running commentary on most of the hexagrams, as well as commentary on a good number of the Analects’ selections. Clearly writes in his forward: “Employing the Book of Changes to analyze and study Confucius, one of history’s most distinguished students of that classic, also helps to surmount yet another problem, which is the difficulty of access to the basic sayings of Confucius that has been caused by centuries of shifting convertions and controversies in later Confucian scholarship. Fortunately the primary sources themselves, the aphorisms of Confucius as found in the Alelects and in the Book of Changes, clarify each other so vividly that the reader may thereby enter into a direct relationship with the ideas of Confucius.”
Cleary’s view of authorship of the Images not withstanding, I will say that using this book along with translations and commentary on the Image texts in the YiJing has given me a wider perspective on their possible meanings and a greater respect for their inclusion in the YiJing proper (rather than as an appendix).
-Glen

By: Luis Andrade

Luis Andrade — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 22:16:20 +0000

Well, in all fairness, I think Anthony’s and Moog’s work is very much worthy of study and many people find a good resonance with it. However, let’s just try to put things in perspective and name things for what they are: a translation is a personal interpretation of a text based on certain rules and an interpretation of translations (which is much of what Anthony’s does) isn’t better than the first. She’s got very good insights, of course, but I wouldn’t discard any layer of the Yijing in the name of ease-of-use…

By: Ewald

Ewald — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:45:40 +0000

That half asleep must go for me too… I just realized there are 5 places in the Zhouyi where dÃ© is (6.3 9.6 32.3 32.5 42.5 ).

By: Hilary

Hilary — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:37:31 +0000

Certainly they’re a separate animal, much less of a ‘commentary’ on the original than other Wings. Some use it more or less as an independent oracle, and I can see why.

As for de in the Image… I’m not sure how it’s best translated. I don’t think it’s originally a purely moral concept – witness that Song in the Shijing where the de of people at a sacrificial meal is increased by drinking. It seems to be a blend of strength of character and a kind of charisma. Its meaning in the Image has developed, naturally, but it definitely carries hints of the old meaning. In 26, for instance, where it’s something that can be ‘accumulated’ through study. (There must be better examples, but I’m half asleep.)

Luis – nice post – I think you may almost have persuaded me to take Anthony and Moog off the shelf.