Comments on: 10 ways to make your I Ching experience difficult and frustrating http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/01/10-ways-to-make-your-i-ching-experience-difficult-and-frustrating/ Readings, insights and understanding from the I Ching, the oracle of Change. Fri, 09 Jan 2009 13:19:52 +0000 By: Hilary http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/01/10-ways-to-make-your-i-ching-experience-difficult-and-frustrating/#comment-57329 Hilary Tue, 14 Aug 2007 18:41:07 +0000 http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/01/10-ways-to-make-your-i-ching-experience-difficult-and-frustrating/#comment-57329 Great! Yes - rule #11 is, of course, 'Never do anything differently as a result of your readings.' It's easy to achieve if you observe rules 1 through 10, or any selection from them. (Also suffering from a shortage of metaphysical T-shirts here... maybe we should <a href="http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/06/the-i-ching-for-t-shirts/">go shopping</a>.) Great!

Yes - rule #11 is, of course, ‘Never do anything differently as a result of your readings.’ It’s easy to achieve if you observe rules 1 through 10, or any selection from them. (Also suffering from a shortage of metaphysical T-shirts here… maybe we should go shopping.)

]]> By: Caro http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/01/10-ways-to-make-your-i-ching-experience-difficult-and-frustrating/#comment-57327 Caro Tue, 14 Aug 2007 17:24:40 +0000 http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/01/10-ways-to-make-your-i-ching-experience-difficult-and-frustrating/#comment-57327 Well, at a glance, all the other respondents seem mortal serious to me. Just wanted to tell you I laughed out loud at every point...I guess you have to have been there, done that, and lost your metaphysical tee-shirt in the process. I have to sadly add that I've backed off consulting the Yi so much recently, which is a pity because I genuinely believe the Yi has spoken with great veracity in answer to my many queries. However, too much navel-gazing does no good. One does - sometimes - just have to spend some time DOING things to produce results in the physical realm. But Thanks for the belly laugh - it was just what I needed! Warm Regards Caro Well, at a glance, all the other respondents seem mortal serious to me. Just wanted to tell you I laughed out loud at every point…I guess you have to have been there, done that, and lost your metaphysical tee-shirt in the process. I have to sadly add that I’ve backed off consulting the Yi so much recently, which is a pity because I genuinely believe the Yi has spoken with great veracity in answer to my many queries. However, too much navel-gazing does no good. One does - sometimes - just have to spend some time DOING things to produce results in the physical realm.
But Thanks for the belly laugh - it was just what I needed!
Warm Regards
Caro

]]> By: jonathon http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/01/10-ways-to-make-your-i-ching-experience-difficult-and-frustrating/#comment-56940 jonathon Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:55:10 +0000 http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/01/10-ways-to-make-your-i-ching-experience-difficult-and-frustrating/#comment-56940 I don't know about the Zhou, but during WW2, the Japanese did ask the YiJing what the US was going to do next. It was only after they stopped consulting the YiJing that they started losing. During the Long March the esteemed Minister consulted the YiJing about the actions of the enemy. One of the reasons that the YiJing had an ambiguous status during the Cultural Revolution, is because it was both a tool of improving one's self, and an oracle, as the esteemed Minister aptly demonstrated to the Chairman in several critical occasions. I don’t know about the Zhou, but during WW2, the Japanese did ask the YiJing what the US was going to do next. It was only after they stopped consulting the YiJing that they started losing.

During the Long March the esteemed Minister consulted the YiJing about the actions of the enemy.

One of the reasons that the YiJing had an ambiguous status during the Cultural Revolution, is because it was both a tool of improving one’s self, and an oracle, as the esteemed Minister aptly demonstrated to the Chairman in several critical occasions.

]]> By: Luis Andrade http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/01/10-ways-to-make-your-i-ching-experience-difficult-and-frustrating/#comment-56847 Luis Andrade Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:37:46 +0000 http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/01/10-ways-to-make-your-i-ching-experience-difficult-and-frustrating/#comment-56847 ++++Agreed, at least with the parts that I understand. ;)+++ Hey, I ain't no Chris...!! :D L ++++Agreed, at least with the parts that I understand. ;)+++

Hey, I ain’t no Chris…!! :D

L

]]> By: Luis Andrade http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/01/10-ways-to-make-your-i-ching-experience-difficult-and-frustrating/#comment-56846 Luis Andrade Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:37:02 +0000 http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/01/10-ways-to-make-your-i-ching-experience-difficult-and-frustrating/#comment-56846 >>>Agreed, at least with the parts that I understand. ;) >>>Agreed, at least with the parts that I understand. ;)

]]> By: Hilary http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/01/10-ways-to-make-your-i-ching-experience-difficult-and-frustrating/#comment-56844 Hilary Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:06:37 +0000 http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/01/10-ways-to-make-your-i-ching-experience-difficult-and-frustrating/#comment-56844 Agreed, at least with the parts that I understand. ;) Agreed, at least with the parts that I understand. ;)

]]> By: Luis Andrade http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/01/10-ways-to-make-your-i-ching-experience-difficult-and-frustrating/#comment-56842 Luis Andrade Thu, 02 Aug 2007 19:37:03 +0000 http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/01/10-ways-to-make-your-i-ching-experience-difficult-and-frustrating/#comment-56842 My humble opinion is this: While the Yi is thought of as an "oracle," and is rather seen in the third person, and even though it was made a classic to revere and study, it is indeed a "divination manual." For this I mean that, while we see it as external from us, the answers drawn and interpreted from it, come from within. It isn't but a tool to access knowledge that's already inside. Divination, by definition, is to get in touch with "divinity" and an "oracle" is the "spoken" message from such a contact. Many religious traditions find "divinity" outside, external from us, but even dogmatic Christianity acknowledges and preaches that we are part of it. A dialogue with "divinity" is thus a personal and internal dialogue. The fact the Yi was later made into a classic and the words of the text became a sort of moral and ethical masterwork does not exclude or deny its origins. The ancient Chinese, as any other ancient culture (and most of them had their own "oracular traditions), were very practical people concerned with very immediate issues: war, conquest, government, sowing the fields and harvesting their food. Oracles were, and still are, used as calendrical (as in timing) and directional tools. Intuition is learned from observation and experience. The Yi and its use is the result of the compounded observations and experiences of hundreds of generations of observers and diviners. People like us. We are, not only benefiting from those that came before us, but also adding our own experiences and observations to the oracle. The oracle is in a retro-feedback flux and, fast communications and sharing of information, compounds the effect. If there is a prediction that can be made with certainty is that, granting humanity survives their own follies, the Yi will be and even better and more precise tool as time goes by, be it a week or 2000 thousand years from now. In the meantime, I also believe we Westerners are "over-thinking" the oracle. IMO, that leads to the confusion Hilary points to. L My humble opinion is this: While the Yi is thought of as an “oracle,” and is rather seen in the third person, and even though it was made a classic to revere and study, it is indeed a “divination manual.” For this I mean that, while we see it as external from us, the answers drawn and interpreted from it, come from within. It isn’t but a tool to access knowledge that’s already inside. Divination, by definition, is to get in touch with “divinity” and an “oracle” is the “spoken” message from such a contact. Many religious traditions find “divinity” outside, external from us, but even dogmatic Christianity acknowledges and preaches that we are part of it. A dialogue with “divinity” is thus a personal and internal dialogue.

The fact the Yi was later made into a classic and the words of the text became a sort of moral and ethical masterwork does not exclude or deny its origins.

The ancient Chinese, as any other ancient culture (and most of them had their own “oracular traditions), were very practical people concerned with very immediate issues: war, conquest, government, sowing the fields and harvesting their food. Oracles were, and still are, used as calendrical (as in timing) and directional tools. Intuition is learned from observation and experience. The Yi and its use is the result of the compounded observations and experiences of hundreds of generations of observers and diviners. People like us. We are, not only benefiting from those that came before us, but also adding our own experiences and observations to the oracle. The oracle is in a retro-feedback flux and, fast communications and sharing of information, compounds the effect. If there is a prediction that can be made with certainty is that, granting humanity survives their own follies, the Yi will be and even better and more precise tool as time goes by, be it a week or 2000 thousand years from now.

In the meantime, I also believe we Westerners are “over-thinking” the oracle. IMO, that leads to the confusion Hilary points to.

L

]]> By: cejudesc http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/01/10-ways-to-make-your-i-ching-experience-difficult-and-frustrating/#comment-56840 cejudesc Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:45:38 +0000 http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/01/10-ways-to-make-your-i-ching-experience-difficult-and-frustrating/#comment-56840 "Yes, absolutely. It’s one thing to ask, ‘What if I do this?’ For instance, ‘What if I call her?’ or ‘If the king marches on the Southern barbarians?’ Those questions assume an active querent....There’s a temptation to think, ‘I’ll ask what will happen. Then when I know what will happen, I can start thinking about what approach to take myself.’ Unfortunately things don’t usually quite work in that order." Let's see Zuo Zhuan for a while (Duke Zhao, 7th Year) Kong Zhengzi needed to decide between his first son (Meng Zhi) and his second son (Yu) to rule. "Kong Zhengzi consulted the Zhou Yi by the reeds, propounding the inquiry whether Yuan would enjoy the state of Wei and preside over its altars, and he got the diagram Tun. He also propounded the inquiry whether he should set up [Meng] Zhi, and if this appointment would be acceptable, in answer to which he got Tun and then Bi" Two mistakes: first he asked about the future without assuming himself as an active querent, but asking for the future outcome to inform his present decision; second, when finally assume himself as an active querent, he did it with that horrible expression.. "wheter he should". What a surpise to see that, at least in the old times, this actually work. “Yes, absolutely. It’s one thing to ask, ‘What if I do this?’ For instance, ‘What if I call her?’ or ‘If the king marches on the Southern barbarians?’ Those questions assume an active querent….There’s a temptation to think, ‘I’ll ask what will happen. Then when I know what will happen, I can start thinking about what approach to take myself.’ Unfortunately things don’t usually quite work in that order.”

Let’s see Zuo Zhuan for a while (Duke Zhao, 7th Year)
Kong Zhengzi needed to decide between his first son (Meng Zhi) and his second son (Yu) to rule.
“Kong Zhengzi consulted the Zhou Yi by the reeds, propounding the inquiry whether Yuan would enjoy the state of Wei and preside over its altars, and he got the diagram Tun. He also propounded the inquiry whether he should set up [Meng] Zhi, and if this appointment would be acceptable, in answer to which he got Tun and then Bi”

Two mistakes:
first he asked about the future without assuming himself as an active querent, but asking for the future outcome to inform his present decision;
second, when finally assume himself as an active querent, he did it with that horrible expression.. “wheter he should”.

What a surpise to see that, at least in the old times, this actually work.

]]> By: Hilary http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/01/10-ways-to-make-your-i-ching-experience-difficult-and-frustrating/#comment-56838 Hilary Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:12:47 +0000 http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/01/10-ways-to-make-your-i-ching-experience-difficult-and-frustrating/#comment-56838 <blockquote>"Are you saying that you can both ask about what will happen and don’t spend time passively waiting for what might happen???"</blockquote> Yes, absolutely. It's one thing to ask, 'What if I do this?' For instance, 'What if I call her?' or 'If the king marches on the Southern barbarians?' Those questions assume an active querent. Actually, so does, 'What if I don't call her, and continue waiting as I have been doing?' It recognises that either way is a choice, and that one's choices make a difference. Whereas 'What's going to happen with her?' - or 'What's going to happen with the Southern barbarians?' - are phrased as if the querent had no influence the outcome. There's a temptation to think, 'I'll ask what will happen. Then when I know what will happen, I can start thinking about what approach to take myself.' Unfortunately things don't usually quite work in that order. <blockquote>"Why say “don’t ask about the future”, instead of “you can find a worth use of the Yi asking about the future, if you aproached like the older did”?"</blockquote> I didn't say 'don't ask about the future'. I do so myself, a lot. But I try to remember that this isn't the same as asking what will happen next in a film I'm watching. I think there's another article in this, don't you? ;) <blockquote>"There are one root-question: if the Yijing is really a tool to improve one’s life (and it is not a scientific data that Yijing is a tool to improve ourselves), then why they chose to make a tool to improve ourselves in the form of an oracle?"</blockquote> An oracle's a way to perceive truth. There's certainly no scientific data as to what this might be 'for'. That's always been up to the individual user. By the way, thank you very much for the detailed and provocative questions! :)

“Are you saying that you can both ask about what will happen and don’t spend time passively waiting for what might happen???”

Yes, absolutely. It’s one thing to ask, ‘What if I do this?’ For instance, ‘What if I call her?’ or ‘If the king marches on the Southern barbarians?’ Those questions assume an active querent.

Actually, so does, ‘What if I don’t call her, and continue waiting as I have been doing?’ It recognises that either way is a choice, and that one’s choices make a difference. Whereas ‘What’s going to happen with her?’ - or ‘What’s going to happen with the Southern barbarians?’ - are phrased as if the querent had no influence the outcome.

There’s a temptation to think, ‘I’ll ask what will happen. Then when I know what will happen, I can start thinking about what approach to take myself.’ Unfortunately things don’t usually quite work in that order.

“Why say “don’t ask about the future”, instead of “you can find a worth use of the Yi asking about the future, if you aproached like the older did”?”

I didn’t say ‘don’t ask about the future’. I do so myself, a lot. But I try to remember that this isn’t the same as asking what will happen next in a film I’m watching. I think there’s another article in this, don’t you? ;)

“There are one root-question: if the Yijing is really a tool to improve one’s life (and it is not a scientific data that Yijing is a tool to improve ourselves), then why they chose to make a tool to improve ourselves in the form of an oracle?”

An oracle’s a way to perceive truth. There’s certainly no scientific data as to what this might be ‘for’. That’s always been up to the individual user.

By the way, thank you very much for the detailed and provocative questions! :)

]]> By: cejudesc http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/01/10-ways-to-make-your-i-ching-experience-difficult-and-frustrating/#comment-56837 cejudesc Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:47:36 +0000 http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2007/08/01/10-ways-to-make-your-i-ching-experience-difficult-and-frustrating/#comment-56837 Putting the irony aside, for a while There is a common idea: "divination" is diferent than "fortune-telling". Asking for what would happen is "fortune-telling" and it (necesarly?) leads the people to assume a passive rol. Of course, in our culture, that may happen. Even I can say, that really happen more than 49% of the times. But why don't see (and reinforce) that in the origin of the Yijing, asking about what will happen wasn't "fortune-telling" but real divination; and the way people aproached didn't lead them to a pasive rol? Why say "don't ask about the future", instead of "you can find a worth use of the Yi asking about the future, if you aproached like the older did"? There are one root-question: if the Yijing is really a tool to improve one's life (and it is not a scientific data that Yijing is a tool to improve ourselves), then why they chose to make a tool to improve ourselves in the form of an oracle? Putting the irony aside, for a while

There is a common idea: “divination” is diferent than “fortune-telling”. Asking for what would happen is “fortune-telling” and it (necesarly?) leads the people to assume a passive rol.

Of course, in our culture, that may happen. Even I can say, that really happen more than 49% of the times.

But why don’t see (and reinforce) that in the origin of the Yijing, asking about what will happen wasn’t “fortune-telling” but real divination; and the way people aproached didn’t lead them to a pasive rol?

Why say “don’t ask about the future”, instead of “you can find a worth use of the Yi asking about the future, if you aproached like the older did”?

There are one root-question: if the Yijing is really a tool to improve one’s life (and it is not a scientific data that Yijing is a tool to improve ourselves), then why they chose to make a tool to improve ourselves in the form of an oracle?

]]>